Australian Rugby / RA

[Pfitzy]

It’s pretty embarrassing we don’t have a professional national competition..

I mean, Japan has one … hell America has one ..

Need more billionaires.

Why don't all these Good Rugby Men pony up some cash to fund such a competition?

 

[Wallaby Man]

Easy fix for that:

Schools competitions play mid week, and club plays Saturdays.

Rugby league has been doing this for years and produces ready talent out the doo-dah for their competitions. Also means their guys retain a link with their club rather than getting cut off at 15 and then stopping altogether when they leave school.

Let's face it: the schools comps aren't the biggest and giving kids 10-12 games a year is less than what Subbies offers.

No wonder we've got so many injuries at higher levels. Guys aren't battle-hardened.

More games
More retention
Better outcomes for individuals

Win.

More games also means more Rugby IQ. I get there is welfare issues and over playing players but currently we are short of where that threshold is

 

[Omar Comin']

I think there are some reasonable middle ground options. Another option would be to just have 2 very concentrated elite teams in Super Rugby, which feeds into the Wallabies (and Australia A, who should play at least a handful of games every season), and then focus on building a national club competition that goes for the full season and lives within its means beneath that. It'd likely start at a semi-pro level, but it could include the 3 current super rugby brands that don't continue in that competition, along with 5-9 others. Maybe in time it builds to the point where you don't even need Super Rugby, or Super Rugby just becomes some fairly short provincial rep competition.

Then you get cohesion at the elite level, plus a legitimate national competition with local rivalries, stronger grassroots connection etc. It'd really be a 2nd tier, because the 1st tier would be Super Rugby+Wallabies/Aus A.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

It's not that simple.

With less teams we have less revenue.

I don't think the quality of the teams improves substantially by reducing the numbers by a couple of teams.

You don't think the Tahs, Reds and Brumbies wouldn't be more competitive with:

Props: Robertson, Gibbon, Fa'amausili, Talakai
Hookers: Faainga'a, Kaitu'u, Mafi, Uelese
Locks: Rodda, Philip, Canham
Backrow: Anstee, Naisarani, Wells, Warren-Vosayaco, Kemeny, Leota, Wilkin,
9s: Sorovi, Fines-Leleiwasa, Robertson
10s: Gordon, Pasitoa, Burey, Kuenzle, Stewart,
Centres: Ili
Wings/FB: Anderson, Kellaway, Hodge,

I understand the revenue issue, but any revised Super Rugby competition must include an increased season length.

 

[Slim 293]

You don't think the Tahs, Reds and Brumbies wouldn't be more competitive with:

Props: Robertson, Gibbon, Fa'amausili, Talakai
Hookers: Faainga'a, Kaitu'u, Mafi, Uelese
Locks: Rodda, Philip, Canham
Backrow: Anstee, Naisarani, Wells, Warren-Vosayaco, Kemeny, Leota, Wilkin,
9s: Sorovi, Fines-Leleiwasa, Robertson
10s: Gordon, Pasitoa, Burey, Kuenzle, Stewart,
Centres: Ili
Wings/FB: Anderson, Kellaway, Hodge,

I understand the revenue issue, but any revised Super Rugby competition must include an increased season length.

I assume these players head overseas for more money and game time.

If only we had an example of Australia cutting a team and it not producing the desired outcome...

 

[drewprint]

Forget about ‘Where To For Super Rugby?’, how about ‘Where To for Rugby?’. Maybe I’m being dramatic as it’s all pretty raw, but surely we’ve reached a crossroads for the sport in our country now. Evolve or die. And even then it may already be too late.

Once upon a time my whole group of mates were really into rugby. Played during school, played colts, loved watching the Reds and Wallabies. Over time that’s steadily dropped off, where really for the better part of the past 10 years they couldn’t give a shit, and now they are all in on the NRL. I’m the last one hanging in there, and it’s by a bloody thread. And this is all too common - we’re losing the hearts and minds, earlier and earlier now and at a constantly accelerating rate.

I’ve said a few times on this forum that I’m a rugby fan first, then Wallabies and then Reds. I’m no sports administrator and not particularly connected to the grassroots game, but if we need to blow up this franchise model and create some kind of club model then we just need to do it. Or the mooted centralisation. If that hurts the Reds and Brumbies, but if it’s a step to getting the sport as a whole out of the doldrums and back on track? Fuck it, do it. Disagree and commit. It can’t keep going like this.

 

[Wallaby Man]

I don’t think 2 teams is solving this issue. That just leads to better trainers, not better players. We just lost comfortably to a team made up of players from more professional teams than we had. That have spent less time together as a wider squad and have made similar decisions in cutting some older players from the squad.

The question that needs to be asked isn’t how to we become more cohesive, etc. it’s how to be produce better rugby players? Not better athletes, not looking to maximize C grade rugby talent and make them a C+ through cohesion. How do we make A and B grade quality rugby players and how do we then provide the systems to make them more cohesive. Funneling the current crop isn’t going to make them competitive against NZ or RSA on a regular basis.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

I assume these players head overseas for more money and game time.

If only we had an example of Australia cutting a team and it not producing the desired outcome...

You would hope to manage it so that they displace the average players in the other three teams.

If those players want to head overseas, then so be it.

 

[Braveheart81]

You don't think the Tahs, Reds and Brumbies wouldn't be more competitive with:

Props: Robertson, Gibbon, Fa'amausili, Talakai
Hookers: Faainga'a, Kaitu'u, Mafi, Uelese
Locks: Rodda, Philip, Canham
Backrow: Anstee, Naisarani, Wells, Warren-Vosayaco, Kemeny, Leota, Wilkin,
9s: Sorovi, Fines-Leleiwasa, Robertson
10s: Gordon, Pasitoa, Burey, Kuenzle, Stewart,
Centres: Ili
Wings/FB: Anderson, Kellaway, Hodge,

I understand the revenue issue, but any revised Super Rugby competition must include an increased season length.

That's never how it works.

You don't just lose the worst players from each team if you reduce the number of teams. You aren't just reallocating player payments from the one or two teams you cut to boost the salaries of the remaining teams.

 

[Highlander35]

You don't think the Tahs, Reds and Brumbies wouldn't be more competitive with:

Props: Robertson, Gibbon, Fa'amausili, Talakai
Hookers: Faainga'a, Kaitu'u, Mafi, Uelese
Locks: Rodda, Philip, Canham
Backrow: Anstee, Naisarani, Wells, Warren-Vosayaco, Kemeny, Leota, Wilkin,
9s: Sorovi, Fines-Leleiwasa, Robertson
10s: Gordon, Pasitoa, Burey, Kuenzle, Stewart,
Centres: Ili
Wings/FB: Anderson, Kellaway, Hodge,

I understand the revenue issue, but any revised Super Rugby competition must include an increased season length.

Why wouldn't most of these players go overseas (even taking into account that 4 or 5 already signed)?

And this redistribution works for this one off rationalization: who ensures that the next Fa'amausili, Uelese, Canham & Leota come along for the ride? If I'm 19 year old Leafi Talataina, starting every game for Aus U20s at number 8 and suddenly told, "sorry mate, teams gone, you'll be on the same shit EPS wage but in Canberra/Brisbane/Sydney away from your family" why am I accepting that rather than trundling off to Japan or a French Academy?

 

[drewprint]

Forget about ‘Where To For Super Rugby?’, how about ‘Where To for Rugby?’. Maybe I’m being dramatic as it’s all pretty raw, but surely we’ve reached a crossroads for the sport in our country now. Evolve or die. And even then it may already be too late.

Once upon a time my whole group of mates were really into rugby. Played during school, played colts, loved watching the Reds and Wallabies. Over time that’s steadily dropped off, where really for the better part of the past 10 years they couldn’t give a shit, and now they are all in on the NRL. I’m the last one hanging in there, and it’s by a bloody thread. And this is all too common - we’re losing the hearts and minds, earlier and earlier now and at a constantly accelerating rate.

I’ve said a few times on this forum that I’m a rugby fan first, then Wallabies and then Reds. I’m no sports administrator and not particularly connected to the grassroots game, but if we need to blow up this franchise model and create some kind of club model then we just need to do it. Or the mooted centralisation. If that hurts the Reds and Brumbies, but if it’s a step to getting the sport as a whole out of the doldrums and back on track? Fuck it, do it. Disagree and commit. It can’t keep going like this.

I should add, one thing I do not think should happen is remaining in Super Rugby but cutting teams. That solves nothing.

 

[Goosestep]

With this utter disaster which is the whole of Rugby Australia, what do you think the odds are of some conglomerate coming together to form a new association? Eg like Super League in the 90s?

seems like a good time to strike

 

[Members Section]

You don't think the Tahs, Reds and Brumbies wouldn't be more competitive with:

Props: Robertson, Gibbon, Fa'amausili, Talakai
Hookers: Faainga'a, Kaitu'u, Mafi, Uelese
Locks: Rodda, Philip, Canham
Backrow: Anstee, Naisarani, Wells, Warren-Vosayaco, Kemeny, Leota, Wilkin,
9s: Sorovi, Fines-Leleiwasa, Robertson
10s: Gordon, Pasitoa, Burey, Kuenzle, Stewart,
Centres: Ili
Wings/FB: Anderson, Kellaway, Hodge,

I understand the revenue issue, but any revised Super Rugby competition must include an increased season length.

You wouldnt get Leota, Fa'amausili, Ulese, Canham

then Talakai, Kellaway, Naisarani would have never come back from oversea

Ili would never have moved to aus for an oppotunity

Anstee, Anderson would have never been given an a contract & would still be in the 7's system

your straight away loosing 1/4 of your playing pool of which half are currently in the world cup squad

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

Why wouldn't most of these players go overseas (even taking into account that 4 or 5 already signed)?

And this redistribution works for this one off rationalization: who ensures that the next Fa'amausili, Uelese, Canham & Leota come along for the ride? If I'm 19 year old Leafi Talataina, starting every game for Aus U20s at number 8 and suddenly told, "sorry mate, teams gone, you'll be on the same shit EPS wage but in Canberra/Brisbane/Sydney away from your family" why am I accepting that rather than trundling off to Japan or a French Academy?

Why would Talataina stay in Australia if the alternative is a cash-strapped national competition? He may as well download Duo Lingo and start to get a taste for Bordeaux Cab Sauvs.

Of course, we want to keep as many kids from Vic and WA playing rugby. But we need to think about the harsh financial reality of casting the net out far and wide.

 

[Bullrush]

Why wouldn't most of these players go overseas (even taking into account that 4 or 5 already signed)?

And this redistribution works for this one off rationalization: who ensures that the next Fa'amausili, Uelese, Canham & Leota come along for the ride? If I'm 19 year old Leafi Talataina, starting every game for Aus U20s at number 8 and suddenly told, "sorry mate, teams gone, you'll be on the same shit EPS wage but in Canberra/Brisbane/Sydney away from your family" why am I accepting that rather than trundling off to Japan or a French Academy?

They don't want to be away from family so off they go to France or Japan?

 

[Members Section]

With this utter disaster which is the whole of Rugby Australia, what do you think the odds are of some conglomerate coming together to form a new association? Eg like Super League in the 90s?

Would never happen because at the end of the day test rugby is the biggest piece of the pie & a rebel comp no player could represent the wallabies

 

[Goosestep]

Would never happen because at the end of the day test rugby is the biggest piece of the pie & a rebel comp no player could represent the wallabies

But if they got most of the talent .. there would be no wallabies -

They’d be forced to deal with them

 

[half]

Given the past 20 years of history, it's highly likely that Rugby Australia don't really know what they mean by 'centralisation' which is probably why they can't explain it. Nothing I've seen in 20 years would indicate that Rugby Australia have the ability to run anything better than anyone.

What they should be looking at is 'unification', by which I mean that we stop running an elite sport in the 21st century using 19th century colonial borders. In my view state and territory RU's are a layer of useless bureaucracy whose time has come. The only useful role moving forward should be to pick state teams at junior level or if rugby was ever in a position to run a state of origin series.

Other than that all clubs should be directly affiliated with Rugby Australia (not with their state/territory unions) in the same way that all clubs in England are directly affiliated with the RFU.

I don't see any future for super rugby at all, so the Brumbies, Reds, Waratahs, Force and Rebels don't figure in my vision of Australian rugby at all. I'm not anti-Brumby, I'm anti all of them. And I'm happy to acknowledge that over the period of Super Rugby the Brumbies have been the most successful franchise. Having a management structure not weighed down by GPS old boys and assorted blazer wearers, and being close enough to Sydney for young players to be close to home are the two main factors I suspect.

The engine for elite sport the world over is club-based, where clubs develop talent from the grass-roots to the elite professional level. What this encourages is excellence from the bottom up as home-grown talent is cheaper than imported talent. (The US being the exception with their system of high school and college sport linking to the professional level). A club based professional competition is the only long-term option for Australian rugby - and it's a long term fix that's required. And I definitely see Canberra being part of that structure, just as Canberra are in important part of the NRL structure. The professional clubs in the competition run the competition, not Rugby Australia. The role of the governing body should be long-term strategic planning (foreign concepts I know to Rugby Australia), not running professional sporting teams or competitions.

The super rugby, provincial model is not the way to go in my opinion and hasn't been the way to go for at least a decade. We're in the bizarre situation where around 80% of the professional rugby players originate from NSW and Queensland and yet only a maximum 40% of the professional rugby players in Australia play for the Reds or the Waratahs. So, for example, as a professional sporting franchise, it's only in the commercial interests of the Waratahs to funnel enough players into their elite programs to support 1 professional team (35-40 players). Meanwhile in Sydney there are 9 NRL clubs funnelling kids into 9 different elite programs, so many of (most I suspect) the kids who don't make it to the Waratahs system just go to the NRL. I know of at least 20 kids who I've either seen start in rugby, or are mates of my son from school who started in rugby and are now in NRL programs - one of them made his NRL debut this year at 19 years of age (from a died in the wool rugby family). Those kids just aren't going to pack up and move to Melbourne or Perth, and only a few would move to Canberra because they can stay in Sydney and still be part of an elite program.

Quick & Dru comment page 117

We all share a similar view pertaining to existing systems and structural faults. Further we share a belief that a National Domestic Competition is the way forward.

Unfortunately, only recently has the penny dropped with many long term hard core rusted on,

I am going to make a call here and rely on the fact I have been screaming since the late 90's that the Super Rugby, and State based Unions needed radical surgery. Its to late IMO via remaining existing structures to develop a meaningful national domestic competition.

To explain and Quick your example of 35 to 40 players at the Waratahs. What you have not said is with league having 17 clubs soon 18, AFL 18, A-L with 12 soon 14, add Basketball. RU no longer gets the cream.

Without going over old forum wars, in the late 90's early 000's, Rugby at international level anyway had little competition, the Socceroos once every four years in a play off game, RL was still in recovery mode from the Super League war. Today we have Football with the Socceroos & Matilda's, Netball with the Dimond's, Basketball, and FFS Cricket has exploded especially with 20 / 20 and womens teams, the AFL is on a womens drive as is the NRL. RL is rebooting for what its worth its international series.

I had to laugh when I read RU folk say when we get the WC in 2027, Rugby will be better than the Womens World Cup, FFS the Matilda's against England and France rated in the tens of millions, its history repeating itself, self delusional of how great we are, when in fact the world is moving on.

IMO the board of RA could run BHP, but struggle with a Saturday morning canteen roster.

Consider,

Basketball, 10 men's teams, 6 women's teams plus international teams
Netball, 10 teams, plus international teams
AFL, 18 men's teams soon 19, I think 18 women's teams,
RL 17 men's teams soon to be 18 teams, 10 women's teams, plus international teams
A-L 12 men's teams soon to be 14, 12 women's teams. plus international teams
Cricket, to many to list, but for both men and women, Tests, Shield, ODM [50 overs], 20 / 20, many international teams

You could add swimming today as well.

All the above, especially Basketball, Football, Netball, Cricket & AFL have huge players bases,

Quick, I don't know the answer anymore as Rugby is loosing at park level big time and in Sydney IMO Rugby ends around Gladsville, once dominate hard core areas no longer exist, the parent demographic especially at the GPS schools is shifting away from Rugby as well, once the old boy networks ages at the GPS schools other sports already growing will gain more influence.

The concussion thing as well adds another level of complexity to digging ourselves out of the hole we find ourselves in.

As I said, I think we are in far more danger [yes danger] than anyone currently thinks, Rugby needs IMO some very clever people to make some key decisions. However sadly the very people that should be replaced believe they hold the wisdom and the knowledge and they hold power and have ego's that will not change anything.

Even sadder, many on this site also believe they have the knowledge and power and should be kept in place.

Don't know the answer anymore, as the club competition should have been established by 2017 and each year not done makes it harder.

 

[Highlander35]

They don't want to be away from family so off they go to France or Japan?

If your career forces you to move away from family, why would you not fuck ALL the way off and get something resembling decent money for what you're doing?

 

[KOB1987]

Not so sure KOB. Given that the Brumbies could have played Mack more and that he went looking for greener pastures, had a centralised system said to him, "here's the contract, now off to Perth (or Melbourne) you go", I reckon he'd still hjave opted for Ireland. And unfortunately there will be more of that I believe if the central organisation tries to move players against their will.

Yes I guess the caveat to what I was saying is that Mack’s preference would have needed to be to stay in Australia. Regardless, he looks like a genius now.