LeCheese
Greg Davis (50)
I care a hell of a lot more about QLD v NSW - or, broadly, AU v NZ - than I do about Wests v Norths
Australian Rugby / RA
- Thread starter Dave Beat
- Start date
noscrumnolife
Bill Watson (15)
No one proposing these sorts of changes are under the illusion that it would be three easy steps. These things would be very difficult to do. But difficult does not mean impossible, and if the idea has merit it should be worth pursuing.
I'm also not sure what the length of someone being on the forum has to do with anything.
This is not directed to you Braveheart, to be clear, because you are proposing reasoned arguments against/thinking through your position. But many others are just claiming "Well I wouldn't like it, me and my 20 mates who still go to Super games love the Tahs, I hate the club game etc etc". This is not of any use. There is something circular to these arguments being made on a forum like this. By virtue of the fact you can be arsed to get into arguments about it over the internet on a Wednesday arvo, you are probably invested enough in Australian Rugby you will find a reason to like whatever competition we have. These are not the audiences we need to think about. It is those who have lost interest in professional Rugby, and youngsters who have never had any. Arguing against by reference to your own personal feelings is not very useful. And if it irks you so much to hear this idea again that all you have to offer is snide remarks, I dare suggest you'd be better off just not responding in the first instance.
There is a simple fact at the core of what I and others propose: club & community rugby is the one aspect of Australian Rugby in a strong position. It is just common sense to lean into your strengths and build your game around them, rather than tweaking and tinkering a model which has been proven not to work time and time again. Even in the recent 'high points' of Super Rugby (Tahs 2014, Early 2010s Reds) they have never attracted crowds or the attention you would expect of a team which purports to represent an entire state.
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Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Really?
Despite Australian Super Rugby crowds being on the slide, the few hundred people showing up to club rugby games isn't a sign that there's greater support for it.
I certainly can't imagine anyone in the ACT, Qld, Victoria or WA wanting to substitute any of their Super Rugby franchises for some pissy local club.
Derpus
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Yeah this. Super bad, club way worse.
I'm not arguing about it based on my own feelings. I'm saying that largely, all these things have been discussed ad nauseum over the last decade or more that the forum has been in existence. There's 816 pages in this thread for example.
Is club rugby in a strong position? It largely survives on the back of getting free labour from its players. The best players it has available are getting paid by another employer (a Super Rugby team) to play in the competition.
The biggest question is how much can you improve the quality of those teams with only a fairly modest salary expenditure. What is the budget required to get it to the necessary level?
LeCheese
Greg Davis (50)
Can't speak for the Tahs, but you're off the mark with the Reds comment. Crowds were strong (incl. a sold out GF and very-close-to-it Semi), media coverage was high, and general buzz around the city was very positive during 2011 and the couple of years following:
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
Not to mention a clear appetite for finals footy demonstrated as recently as 2021's Super AU final. There's a lot of work to be done around competition structures and product at super level, but to suggest there is no connection, tribalism or support for those sides is demonstrably untrue.
LeCheese
Greg Davis (50)
One of the best crowds I've ever been a part of
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Yep, aside from players needing more professional matches, part* of the solution lies with having a domestic element (while still competing against the Kiwis) because people want to watch Australian teams playing in a championship.
*still relies upon RA fixing a number of underlying issues.
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
Truly impeccable vibes, everyone ecstatic to be there and focused on the rugby. We were sat in front of Nic Berry's family and his wife let us know early just to make sure we didn't go hard at him in front of his kids but it was never a problem, we were all there for the love of the game, probably more so than any game before or since, given the state of the world at the time.
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
Absolutely, and It looks clear that the best and most achievable option from a development perspective is an extended Super AU after Super Pacific.
Beyond that I have a lot more faith in bot RA and the state unions to get the rest right if we can maintain some degree of stability and consistency at the professional level that allows them to plan more than a year or 2 in the future.
LeCheese
Greg Davis (50)
It truly was magical, as you said, particularly given the previous 12 months. We were seated row 8 behind the posts where O'Connor crossed - something I'll never forget. Likewise congratulating the players as they waltzed into the Caxton in their "Champions" tees. The memory seems to disappear shortly thereafter though...
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
The way I see it we still need a "first class" competition feeding into the national side. Rather like the Sheffield Shield is for cricket. That can still be super rugby for us, either in the current structure or a champions league style thing where we have OZ + Fiji in one group and NZ + Moana in the other. The top two in each group play semis and then the final.
We'll always have club footy and that's a good thing, it's where the next generation of first class and test players comes from. The question for me is what needs to come between club and first class level, because to my mind we need that bridge.
I reckon there are two viable options that don't completely upend the current structures:
- Option 1: an NRC style comp where we have Force, Rebels, Brumbies/Vikings/Kookaburras, NSW Country, Sydney, QLD Country and Brisbane, plus probably the Drua.
- Option 2: a round robin champions league style comp with the grand finalists of each Premier grade across the five Super franchises. Split them into two groups and they all play each other once. Top two in each group play semis then final.
The games are played at suburban grounds or places like Ballymore to save money and connect with local rugby communities.
Each of the options taps into tribalism to varying degrees, provides more footy (which we're all crying out for) and bridges the club level comps with the higher tiers of the game.
We'll always have club footy and that's a good thing, it's where the next generation of first class and test players comes from. The question for me is what needs to come between club and first class level, because to my mind we need that bridge.
I reckon there are two viable options that don't completely upend the current structures:
- Option 1: an NRC style comp where we have Force, Rebels, Brumbies/Vikings/Kookaburras, NSW Country, Sydney, QLD Country and Brisbane, plus probably the Drua.
- Option 2: a round robin champions league style comp with the grand finalists of each Premier grade across the five Super franchises. Split them into two groups and they all play each other once. Top two in each group play semis then final.
The games are played at suburban grounds or places like Ballymore to save money and connect with local rugby communities.
Each of the options taps into tribalism to varying degrees, provides more footy (which we're all crying out for) and bridges the club level comps with the higher tiers of the game.
drewprint
Dick Tooth (41)
Pure thought exercise here - I pre-emptively acknowledge this as a ridiculous statement so put the guns down: given the last few pages and the discussed lack of Waratahs fan buy in, Shute Shield pushback, and Shute Shield club system as the saving grace, do the Tahs get folded and replaced by say 2 new NSW entities who are brought in to join the existing Aus Super franchises? With backing and support of Shute Shield, but then amalgamating into the existing Super structure. I can think of a billion flaws as I write this…
Derpus
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Shute Shield won't back anything that isn't Shute Shield.
Its unbelievable how inflated people involved with those clubs think their importance is.
The Tahs have had plenty of buy-in over time.
The problem with the Shute Shield suggestion (and club rugby teams everywhere) is that it makes perfect sense if you avidly follow your club and can see this as the competition where your club gets more money to play in a bigger and better competition but otherwise remains the same.
I certainly don't think it helps if the team you support suddenly isn't in this new competition.
As soon as you start merging teams you lose most or all of the tribalism you had.
The problem with the Shute Shield suggestion (and club rugby teams everywhere) is that it makes perfect sense if you avidly follow your club and can see this as the competition where your club gets more money to play in a bigger and better competition but otherwise remains the same.
I certainly don't think it helps if the team you support suddenly isn't in this new competition.
As soon as you start merging teams you lose most or all of the tribalism you had.
Highlander35
Steve Williams (59)
Always love it when the tone police come out on the forum.
It ain't Public School debate club here.
It ain't Public School debate club here.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
Theoretically Slim. There is an argument, of course, that the best players in Australia are already playing or connected with JID teams.
D-Box
Cyril Towers (30)
What I don't get with all the arguments about club being the basis is that it will lead to some clubs getting all the good players. I remember when this forum would complain that every Waratah ended up at Sydney Uni, but are then proposing a model that will embed this more.
If it becomes a champions league style competition watch the outcry when a Tah who is connected to a club that hasn't qualified suddenly turns out for a club that did. We had this in Perth in 2022 when the Callen boys were told they could no longer play for Wanaroo after the premier grade comp split and they had to change clubs.
If it becomes a champions league style competition watch the outcry when a Tah who is connected to a club that hasn't qualified suddenly turns out for a club that did. We had this in Perth in 2022 when the Callen boys were told they could no longer play for Wanaroo after the premier grade comp split and they had to change clubs.