Australian Rugby / RA

[Derpus]

It's pretty sad, because individual clubs and communities have been the core of rugby in the past, but there's evidence they just struggle to attract the level of support, interest and by extension the athletes not to have that process of development taken off them and centralised.

I find the idea that clubs generally contribute to a pool of players that feed upwards kind of amusing.

Tell you what, the fat fluffybunnys down at my subbies club dont contribute to shit (except the local pub owners mortgage).

 

[Finsbury Girl]

The core of Jones' point about returning to the clubs goes to the same anti centralisation, pro individual club and community feel. I really like it in theory, and almost all sport has started off like that and grown from it.

But the reality is that globalisation has pulled all that to pieces - and the only way we are going to get talent to the highest levels is by some degree of centralisation. This is evidence by Ireland's centralised system for player talent.

It's pretty sad, because individual clubs and communities have been the core of rugby in the past, but there's evidence they just struggle to attract the level of support, interest and by extension the athletes not to have that process of development taken off them and centralised.

According to that recent podcast interview with Knuckles, he reckons that he has never seen such support, crowds and interest in Brisbane club rugby EVER. Now I don't know if that's true or not, but I certainly hope it's true. Anecdotally, a few good teammates of mine from GPS have basically given up interest on professional rugby and instead would rather go down to Yoku Road for the craic on a Sat arvo. Good footy, good company and a lot more fun, kid friendly and a lot cheaper. It's certainly my opinion that the top of the pyramid benefits greatly from a solid base. Strong club footy in Brisbane, Sydney and surrounds is vital.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

According to that recent podcast interview with Knuckles, he reckons that he has never seen such support, crowds and interest in Brisbane club rugby EVER. Now I don't know if that's true or not, but I certainly hope it's true. Anecdotally, a few good teammates of mine from GPS have basically given up interest on professional rugby and instead would rather go down to Yoku Road for the craic on a Sat arvo. Good footy, good company and a lot more fun, kid friendly and a lot cheaper. It's certainly my opinion that the top of the pyramid benefits greatly from a solid base. Strong club footy in Brisbane, Sydney and surrounds is vital.

I don't think anyone would argue that Club Rugby has a vital role to play. It was also noticeable that the turnout for the Brisbane NRC games hosted at club grounds were quite good as well. Many people are feeling disconnected from the pro game at present and are finding a home in club Rugby. But to buy into the belief that it's hugely popular is getting ahead of the facts. Particularly in Sydney where from a handful of games each season some have conflated it to assume that it's representative of the competition as a whole. It most certainly is not.

 

[Quick Hands]

A further comment by AJ that bears on what is being discussed here:
"Word is they (Castle and Clyne) will insist on coaching changes. Word has it that Rod Kafer and Ben Whitaker are putting together two lists of coaches for the board to look at.
But how are Kafer, Whitaker, Clyne or Castle fit to judge Michael Cheika or his replacement?
It beggars belief.
Kafer lasted less than a year when he was once a coach. Whitaker heads up our low-performing High Performance Unit."
Ouch.

You correctly recall the mediocre history of Kafer and Whitaker.

Interesting that Kafer's name pops up as we learn that the prospective phone call is cancelled between Jake W and RA because of a leak. Hmm, Kafer clearing the path to appoint old mate Larkham? (the traditional ARU/RA selection process)

 

[Quick Hands]

New Zealand under performed this year as well at U20.

As for the current No. 1 rugby playing nation according to Hansen. IRELAND U20 had the humiliation of playing 11/12 playoff against Japan for relegation to 2nd teir.

I don't know if U20 is a really good indicator for the National team.

The final was between France and England. Won by the home team France. What U20 does show is that the Northern hemisphere teams have caught up to and now might be stronger than the South.

I actually think at both levels, there is not too much between any of the top teams, and on their day anyone can beat anyone. Just what you want at Test level.

That's one year you're talking about - we haven't figured near the top for 8 years which is a little bit of a different situation.

So, in the interests of fairness and having complete facts before us:

2008 - 1. NZ, 2. England, 3 SAF, 4. Wales
2009 - 1. NZ, 2. England, SAF, 4. Australia
2010 - 1. NZ, 2. Australia, 3. SAF, 4. England
2011 - 1. NZ, 2. England, 3. Australia, 4. France
2012 - 1. SAF, 2. NZ, 3. Wales, 4. Argentina
2013 - 1. England, 2. Wales 3. SAF, 4. NZ
2014 - 1. England, 2. SAF, 3. NZ, 4. Ireland
2015 - 1. NZ, 2. England, 3. SAF, 4. France
2016 - 1. England, 2. Ireland, 3. Argentina, 4. SAF
2017 - 1. NZ, 2. England, 3. SAF, 4. France
2018 - 1. France, 2. England, 3. SAF, 4. NZ

I'm not sure that the table above indicates that "there's not to much between any of the top teams", because the same teams always seem in the top 4.

England, South Africa and New Zealand have been in the top 4 every year since the event started.

I don't think that the evidence supports your point about the north catching up to the south - except that one of the SH nations has declined significantly.

 

[Spruce Moose]

You correctly recall the mediocre history of Kafer and Whitaker.

Interesting that Kafer's name pops up as we learn that the prospective phone call is cancelled between Jake W and RA because of a leak. Hmm, Kafer clearing the path to appoint old mate Larkham? (the traditional ARU/RA selection process)

Hell I hope not, I get the feeling with Larkham he is just too good a rugby player to be a good coach. Teaches tactics and plays that if our back line was 7 Larkhams they would have no problem doing but as they are not it probably just frustrates the players and him.

Think its the same in all sports, rarely do superstar players become great coaches. Of course happy to be proven wrong!

 

[Quick Hands]

Sounds just like a description of Michael Cheika to me. So, where's the change?

Success? (not that I'm advocating Jones - based on his age of 73, not on personal dislike or ability)

 

[KOB1987]

I don't think that the evidence supports your point about the north catching up to the south - except that one of the SH nations has declined significantly never really featured.

FTFY

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I was until very recently one those who believed the assistants had to go. But after learning a little more about the power wielded by Cheika, I'm not so sure. While it's easy to criticise the individual aspects under the respective coaches lets look at this differently.

Defence: Nathan Grey has to come up with a structure that shifts players constantly out of position in order to protect their failings. Selections is all Cheika, so Grey just has to play the hand he's dealt.

Attack: Foley can't, or won't run to the line or run straight. No amount of brilliance from Larkham's brain can fix that. Put Foley at 12 and his running causes more problems. Add to this Cheika is constantly changing things around so even the attack coach doesn't know what he's working with.


Forwards: The lineout is a problem quite simply because we have a lack of options with "Pooper" in play. Hooper has a massive heart but he can't scavenge as well as others, he's redundant in the lineout and he's too small to take it to the line. His purpose (which is done brilliantly) is solely to cleanup the mess left by backs selected who can't tackle. Raiwalui is quite literally left with trying to put lipstick on a pig.

I agree there are more than just Hooper and Foley at fault here but when your captain and 10 are not working properly, nobody is. They are also the only 2 players consistently picked throughout our direct slide from number 2 to number 7 - now 6

Cheika is a decent coach but his loyalty to players who simply aren't up to the task is hindering the ability of his other coaches to do their job.

Selection power needs to be divested because Cheika isn't making the right calls on his own.

Yep don't know where i read it - probably on here but core of players who have been used over the years and not changed shows Cheika run out of ideas. He needs to go - but 50/50 whether he will before the world cup but 95/5 sure he is gone post world cup.

If I had a magic wand - Cheika and co would be gone.....the whole board of RA would be gone. NSWRU would be abolished....ok that will do for a start....

 

[Quick Hands]

Take a match to the entire structure of the game in the country. Eliminate the the Unions at the State and regional level and re-structure the entire organisation.

Clubs should affiliate directly to RA as the clubs in England do to the RFU. It gives the clubs a say in the running of the game (and the way England rugby is going at all levels, you'd have to say it's working).

Using 19th century colonial borders to structure and administer a game which isn't spread evenly across the country is nonsensical.

Community level rugby is devolved to regional bodies funded by the RFU, regional academies are funded and resourced by the RFU and the elite game is run by the RFU. I'm sure the system isn't perfect and I'm equally sure that there will be people who'll jump on here and point out all the problems, but the objective evidence suggests their structure is working better than ours. Yes they have more money, but they also have a bigger population, more players and more clubs.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Clubs should affiliate directly to RA as the clubs in England do to the RFU. It gives the clubs a say in the running of the game (and the way England rugby is going at all levels, you'd have to say it's working).

Using 19th century colonial borders to structure and administer a game which isn't spread evenly across the country is nonsensical.

Community level rugby is devolved to regional bodies funded by the RFU, regional academies are funded and resourced by the RFU and the elite game is run by the RFU. I'm sure the system isn't perfect and I'm equally sure that there will be people who'll jump on here and point out all the problems, but the objective evidence suggests their structure is working better than ours. Yes they have more money, but they also have a bigger population, more players and more clubs.

How I envision it there would be a Professional Rugby Dept. and a Grassroots Rugby Dept. that would run the respective functions of the game. You would have one Pro Rugby manager who would coordinate all the squad operations in conjunction with a respective State manager and the HP coaches for the professional sides. Within the Grassroots there would be a clubs manager directly responsible for the premier clubs and a community manager for the social side of the equation who would oversee all development work.

The point is. If you do it right. You can free up significant funds that could be redistributed across the board. We could set aside a portion for talent retention. A portion to divide among the clubs etc. As before, there are examples of up 40% savings in these kinds of restructures which from what I can gather could save between $24-32m dollars across the four pro franchises.

 

[Quick Hands]

How I envision it there would be a Professional Rugby Dept. and a Grassroots Rugby Dept. that would run the respective functions of the game. You would have one Pro Rugby manager who would coordinate all the squad operations in conjunction with a respective State manager and the HP coaches for the professional sides. Within the Grassroots there would be a clubs manager directly responsible for the premier clubs and a community manager for the social side of the equation who would oversee all development work.

The point is. If you do it right. You can free up significant funds that could be redistributed across the board. We could set aside a portion for talent retention. A portion to divide among the clubs etc. As before, there are examples of up 40% savings in these kinds of restructures which from what I can gather could save between $24-32m dollars across the four pro franchises.

Of course the glaring problem we have is that RA are so dysfunctional and incompetent.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Of course the glaring problem we have is that RA are so dysfunctional and incompetent.

And that's the crux. The national body is so dysfunctional that they lack the necessary strength to drive the changes needed for the betterment of the game.

 

[formerflanker]

It’s nothing personal, there’s just certain characters we’re better off not associating with....

Getting into bed with someone so universally despised is not in our best interests.

But just in terms of rugby, he’s contributed nothing in 30 years that makes me believe he has any wisdom to impart..... and being on team Papworth shows he doesn’t have the national interest at heart.

Slim, "universally despised" is wrong.
On radio, he has been number one for decades so many listeners don't despise him.
Rugby-wise, he was given a lot of credit for turning Manly into a premiership winning team. A Grand Slam and Bledisloe Cup winning coach, many respect his achievements.
He may be derided but not "universally despised".

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Slim, "universally despised" is wrong.
On radio, he has been number one for decades so many listeners don't despise him.
Rugby-wise, he was given a lot of credit for turning Manly into a premiership winning team. A Grand Slam and Bledisloe Cup winning coach, many respect his achievements.
He may be derided but not "universally despised".

His No.1 in radio is skewed. In terms of volume of listeners he's more like top 5 but not No. 1 in terms of total listeners. Nova, KIIS and WSFM all have morning shows that peak significantly higher than his audience. The difference is that while many of the people who listen to the FM station do so on there way to work Jones' listeners tend to be older and tune in more consistently across the 3 hour period. This was actually covered a few weeks back.

As for turning Manly into a Premiership force that That was in what? 1983. Sorry, mate. That's not even remotely relevant today.

 

[jimmydubs]

Jones would probably be about as good as Cheika. So that's a no. Im pretty sure the squad if left without a coach could organise themselves to as many wins as they got this year.

Someone competent needed to improve on that. JW wouldn't be worse but not sure hes the messiah. Would be happy for him to come on now on a 1 year

 

[RebelYell]

I can't believe that people are genuinely talking about a bigoted man who takes potshots in a poorly constructed once a week, his first involvement in Rugby for over a decade bar coaching the Barbarians for two games last year (when all the players ignored his directions not to have beers while in camp) coaching the Wallabies.

Suggest a separate thread for Alan Jones so that we can talk about actual RA/Aus Rugby issues here without fantasyland nonsense.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

RA may be incompetent but at this point NSWRU in comparison are making them look world class.....

 

[Joe Blow]

It looks more and more like they are going to try and retain Cheika.
If so they should replace Grey and Raiwalui with maybe Peter Ryan and Laurie Fischer(if available), or similar folk.
I would then bring in Bob Dwyer as a director/mentor and he could be a selector as well as help out, particularly in attack with Larkham. I would also have the Super Rugby coaches involved in their areas of expertise. I would also enlist a third qualified selector who is removed from the setup.
It’s doubtful that Cheika would be able to operate under these conditions but he should be given no choice or any wriggle room. If RA had a sliver of spine we would not be at this spot right now.

 

[Dan54]

Anyway you know we running out of rugby discussion when anyone is finding it so hard to talk about that they would even hint that Alan Jones could or should be near the Wallabies in a coaching set up! Must be the off season!