AUSTRALIAN MEDIA NOT HELPING (Including you Scarfman).

[Muttonbird]

DO YOU THINK THE ALLBACKS ARE CURRENTLY ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH SLIGHTLY MORE THAN OTHER TEAMS?

- YES
- NO

- NO

Granted, the current perception outside NZ is otherwise. In 2009 the captain, the ref's boss, the coaches, and aura were all the same but from NZ's point of view the AB's were penalised harder than other teams. The "cheats" tag was on Brussow and the Boks in general. IMO the team that's out in front gets scrutinised much harder than others - that's human nature.

and...

- YES

The theory goes that teams on the front foot are at an advantage in the official's eyes because rugby rules favour the attacking team. If this is true then the ABs are currently getting a better deal not because they are ABs but because they are playing well.

 

[Scorz]

NZ Herald put some stats up the other day too, about the amount of penalties per yellow card the AB's do/don't get.

This from the great man himself...

"My point of view is that there has been no disparity in the refereeing. People put stats out and then come to a conclusion, but the statistics don't give the full picture.

"If we feel we are close to a yellow card, then we back off and we don't give away a penalty in that facet again. If you're on the borderline, then you back off, if you're warned about something then you adapt. That's what I make sure I do personally and the team does too.

"I would be very frustrated if we did not learn from how the referee is blowing, you'd be an idiot not to change if you've been warned," McCaw said.

 

[cyclopath]

- NO

Granted, the current perception outside NZ is otherwise. In 2009 the captain, the ref's boss, the coaches, and aura were all the same but from NZ's point of view the AB's were penalised harder than other teams. The "cheats" tag was on Brussow and the Boks in general. IMO the team that's out in front gets scrutinised much harder than others - that's human nature.

and...

- YES

The theory goes that teams on the front foot are at an advantage in the official's eyes because rugby rules favour the attacking team. If this is true then the ABs are currently getting a better deal not because they are ABs but because they are playing well.

Not quite sure how many nations are "outside" NZ in the IRB, but it is curious that you state this, but then imply that they must all be wrong!
This thread is redundant - there is no middle ground for discussion, the winners will remain grinners for a while, the rest can deal with it.
I think the ABs do a lot that is technically illegal.
I think others do too, but less cleverly.
I think the ABs are innovators, and are ahead of the curve.
Ask Paul Keating about J-curves...at some time the curve will come back to bite you.

 

[Muttonbird]

Not quite sure how many nations are "outside" NZ in the IRB, but it is curious that you state this, but then imply that they must all be wrong!

Yeah, just saying that there is a loud chorus singing the New Zealander's are cheats song and those that are singing are wrong. Like you say, there's no middle ground.

No doubt the All Blacks will stumble somewhat at RWC2011 - history shows it - and then all those who see a red mist at their tactics can breathe a sigh of relief that justice has prevailed.

 

[cyclopath]

Yeah, just saying that there is a loud chorus singing the New Zealander's are cheats song and those that are singing are wrong. Like you say, there's no middle ground.

No doubt the All Blacks will stumble somewhat at RWC2011 - history shows it - and then all those who see a red mist at their tactics can breathe a sigh of relief that justice has prevailed.

Oh, I think there is plenty of doubt the ABs will stumble at RWC 2011. This is their time, I think.
If they stumble to another 2007 howler, I for one will not rejoice, as we will have to abide a bunch of whinging about dud referees, and I cannot imagine anything worse.

 

[Hawko]

Oh, I think there is plenty of doubt the ABs will stumble at RWC 2011. This is their time, I think.
If they stumble to another 2007 howler, I for one will not rejoice, as we will have to abide a bunch of whinging about dud referees, and I cannot imagine anything worse.

The only thing missing is the smiley.

 

[Muttonbird]

...as we will have to abide a bunch of whinging about dud referees, and I cannot imagine anything worse.

Agreed. We've heard nothing else so far in this international season.

 

[cyclopath]

The only thing missing is the smiley.

I thought it was so obvious, that to add the smiley was redundant!

 

[Muttonbird]

I rest my case.

 

[DPK]

Agreed. We've heard nothing else so far in this international season.

The difference being currently we are hearing a section of Aus Rugby fans complaining, however if the AB's are knocked out I'm sure the whole NZ population will do it's darndest to perforate the eardrums of the rest of us.

 

[Muttonbird]

...I'm sure the whole NZ population will do it's darndest to perforate the eardrums of the rest of us.

The RWC2007 QF was a game that should have had one of the top four referees officiating, not a 28-year-old international rookie. If NZ strikes another blundering performance by the refs at RWC2011 it will be worth a good moan, don't you think?

 

[DPK]

The RWC2007 QF was a game that should have had one of the top four referees officiating, not a 28-year-old international rookie. If NZ strikes another blundering performance by the refs at RWC2011 it will be worth a good moan, don't you think?

I think if the AB's are as good as they're purported to be, the ref's performance won't enter into it.

 

[Muttonbird]

Fair enough. If that then is applied to every game then complaining about the ref for any result is not allowed.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

The difference being currently we are hearing a section of Aus Rugby fans complaining, however if the AB's are knocked out I'm sure the whole NZ population will do it's darndest to perforate the eardrums of the rest of us.

Please, off your high horse. Every crowd has it's section who whinge about the ref, every crowd has it's those who accept and move on. There is no difference, you just have a natural bias to assuming your home crowd are better/worse than others.

 

[DPK]

Please, off your high horse. Every crowd has it's section who whinge about the ref, every crowd has it's those who accept and move on. There is no difference, you just have a natural bias to assuming your home crowd are better/worse than others.

But rugby isn't the national sport of Australia, it only commands a section of sporting attention in Australia. If we are knocked out, the whinging will be there but most Australian's will have the normal reaction "We're not winning? Well I'm not paying attention to that shit". Like when the Socceroos got knocked out of the WC; ref's had a big influence on the downfall of their WC campaign, but the Australian reaction lasted about a week.

 

[Crucial]

That was never my point, Scorz. My point is that the ABs are systematically getting away with more than other sides. I don't expect you to agree, but don't twist my words, eh? I've got a theory, I've provided evidence, give me some credit.

Hi Scarfman, I popped over the ditch to read this thread in order to try and get the story from the horses mouth (so to speak) as to the aim of the video instead of trying to guess your intentions. I haven't bothered reading all of the posts in the thread so I apologise if you have already clarified your position further than the one quoted above.
All I will add is that your compilation in no way achieves what you are trying to prove. How can it show that the ABs are "systematically getting away with more than other sides" when you only show instances of the ABs? You MAY be correct in your assumptions but when I look at the reply video posted of the same game showing the Boks instances then the point that the ABs get away with more seems off the mark.

Even if we were to take away all of the hyperbole and argument around interpretation of the Laws we would be left with...

You have a theory - yes
Provided evidence - yes
Does the evidence prove your theory? - no

Imagine if someone was to compile a video that showed 'off the ball' incidents by the Wallabies and claim that they did this more often than other sides. We could open with Duncan McRae, followed by Michael Brial etc etc. It would show a theory and provide evidence but prove nothing except that those incidents occurred.

Your clip has certainly provided some valid talking points especially around interpretation and how our reading of the Laws can be at odds with the way the game is reffed but sadly it is destined to become 'fact' among the unwashed who either don't understand the complexities of Rugby Union or haven't seen the counter-video that show that the ref was consistent during that game (with errors as expected)

 

[barbarian]

Nice to see you here Crucial, and even nicer to see a kiwi who can come at this debate with a level head. I think the point you raise is very valid, and is one of the main drawbacks to the video.

I think it will be interesting to see how the refereeing changes in the coming test in SA, with the vocal Soweto crowd firmly behind the boys in green.

 

[cyclopath]

The RWC2007 QF was a game that should have had one of the top four referees officiating, not a 28-year-old international rookie. If NZ strikes another blundering performance by the refs at RWC2011 it will be worth a good moan, don't you think?

Now I rest my case.
All fans will whinge at some stage when they feel they are getting a raw deal. More so when they lose more often.
Kiwi fans have it easier in rugby - your team wins more. Doesn't mean you don't, or won't whinge sometimes.

 

[Crucial]

Now I rest my case.
All fans will whinge at some stage when they feel they are getting a raw deal. More so when they lose more often.
Kiwi fans have it easier in rugby - your team wins more. Doesn't mean you don't, or won't whinge sometimes.

If losing=whinging then at the moment Australian Rugby gatherings must sound like the queue at the Majorca Chippie when the expat Poms discover they've run out of mushy peas.

 

[Scarfman]

Crucial - good point, but also NO single video could ever achieve that. You would know that us Aussies have been complaining about McCaw for years. Nothing ever happened. But for some reason, when you make a video, it somehow becomes real. If I had a dollar for every time I have said "McCaw flops deliberately on the wrong side" I could buy New Zealand. Nobody paid any attention. Now the rugby world is talking about it (the SANZAR part, anyway), so I'm pleased.

Anyway - unless compelling new evidence or argument comes to light, I'm going to remove myself from this discussion. No doubt people will continue to take me out of context and exaggerate my views, but I'll have to live with that.