AUSTRALIAN MEDIA NOT HELPING (Including you Scarfman).

[ACT Crusader]

Discuss

Gagger do you work for Treasury, because I swear I saw a similar bar graph like that which had the Liberal Party's costings on it

Gnostic - just out of interest have you seen a rugby game recently when the types of antics you don't like have not been on display?

 

[Gnostic]

ACT man all games have them to a greater or lesser degree. If they didn't we wouldn't need the ref or assistants would we. The Points still stand however.

Those points do not detract fro the aspects of excelent play we have seen this year. The clear reason why the ABs are so far ahead of the Wallabies and what has made watching them good are:-
1) Speed of play,
2) Accuracy of passing
3) Accuracy of skills execution eg. lineout throwing, scrum work
4) Mode of play, players are always in motion, attackers do not get the ball flat footed.
5) True set piece moves such as the one which saw Nonu get the ball behind the gain line take a submissive tackle to set up the very fast ruck which saw the ball spread wide and leaving the defenders still attempting to move on the preceeding ruck. Effectively took out both centres and left a 4 man overlap against the JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale.

 

[Blue]

Gagger do you work for Treasury, because I swear I saw a similar bar graph like that which had the Liberal Party's costings on it

That sort of graph would be way too complex for anyone in treasury to understand.

 

[Gagger]

Well, it looks like our stats together with G&GR's own world cup winning coach has put this up the agenda so that few people can ignore it. Richie sure seems to be getting hot under the collar.

From http://www.supersport.com/rugby/tri-nations/news/100818/McCaw_hits_out_at_breakdown_idiots

McCaw hits out at breakdown "idiots"
by Brenden Nel 18/08/2010, 10:04

All Black captain Richie McCaw took a swipe at his critics, including Springbok coach Peter de Villiers, by suggesting that any player who doesn’t adapt to a referee’s interpretation of the breakdown is “an idiot”.

McCaw has been widely singled out – as Bok lock Victor Matfield put it recently “getting away with murder” at the breakdown – with consistent suggestions that referees treat the All Blacks differently to their opposition when it comes to penalising offences.

World Cup winning former Australian coach Bob Dwyer added fuel to the fire this week when he released stats that show that the Springboks and Australians concede a yellow card every six penalties, as opposed to the All Blacks who concede a yellow every 43 penalties – seven times the number for their opposition.

Dwyer has clashed publicly with International Refereeing boss Paddy O’Brien, who is from New Zealand, and suggested that referees were lenient on All Black transgressions.

Despite the overwhelming stats, McCaw defended his side, saying he “disagreed completely” with the assumption that was being made.

“I don’t agree with you on that,” he shot back when presented with the statistics. “When you put stats like that out then I suppose you will come to a conclusion but in my view, it has never felt like that.

“When you get close to a yellow card, you need to get back and make sure you don’t give another penalty away. When you get a warning you have to be smart about it. All those stats do is to show that this is the case with us.”

McCaw then went further, firing the broadside at his critics.

“When you are there you have to adapt to the referees interpretations. That’s what frustrates me the most about this debate, is that players don’t learn the way the referee interprets the breakdown,” McCaw explained.

“You can moan about it all you like but if you’re not getting what you want then you’re an idiot. You need to change personally and for the team. Statistics doesn’t always tell the full picture.”

McCaw said he felt the interpretations had changed “a little” since the Super 14, but was happy that the breakdown was now “a fair contest again”.

“I think we were pinned a lot at the start of the Super 14 but it has come back to where it is a good contest. You have to have a change of habit and nobody has gotten away with anything in the Tri Nations. It is now a good contest and should a guy be isolated and another arrives on his feet, he has the rights.

“But if you do it right and protect your ball, then you have the opportunity to play with the ball in hand. Balance is the key here and I think the interpretations are good the way they are currently. I don’t have too many worries. You have to adapt to each referee because no ref is identical.”

However McCaw’s critics will respond by saying that is the crux of their argument after all – that the breakdown is now interpreted to suit McCaw and not the rest of the world.

 

[Toddy]

Name: Mike Biagio

Question: Hi there,

The play by the All Blacks lately has made me very concerned, in that they are running obstructively (i.e. in front of the tackle) on defence and on attack. The means that on defence, the Boks cannot get to the tackle to compete, and the All Blacks get quick ball. On attack, the obstructive running slows our cleaners from getting to the tackle at all. This is clearly not within the laws of the game. See the you tube video "All Blacks at the breakdown" as an example.

This is very blatant and has a massive effect on the game, however, the refs don't pick it up because they are focussed on the ball and competition for it. What are the refs going to do about it? Perhaps the linesmen could be tasked with looking for it, as well as offside play?

Mark Lawrence: Hello Mike,

Thanks for you question. I watched the eight-minute video but couldn't quite finish it, as nothing the All Blacks did, was any different to what any other team does when they carry the ball into a ruck. This is a long standing problem of attacking teams, whose arriving players don't enter through the gate. They often then overrun the tackle if the defenders don't contest the tackle, and end up as “pillars” on the defenders' side of the tackle/ruck.

As referees, we are pretty good at penalising the defenders for incorrect entry, but not so the attackers. The problem for referees is to be able to watch the defenders and attackers at the same time . We naturally watch the defenders first and then the attackers. However, the IRB and SANZAR are continually working with, not only the refs but the coaches too, in an effort to get the defenders and the attackers to be refereed equally at the breakdown.

I guess the order of the day for the referees is “to look and kyk, gelyk” for our English readers it translates to look, watch and see everything simultaneously. Just sounds more impossible in Afrikaans.

Don't fear, Mike, the playing fields are level for all the teams.

Keep well.

Regards, Mark

http://www.sareferees.co.za/

 

[Gnostic]

Lawrence should have been a politician. He has effectively said he agrees with everybody, whilst taking the position that he will penalise any illegalities he can identify.

Given he is a serving ref it is a very well handled reply to a question which could have landed him in much hot water with Obrien.

The response, and if indicative of the attitude of the refs, will do nothing to address the issues.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Lawrence should have been a politician. He has effectively said he agrees with everybody, whilst taking the position that he will penalise any illegalities he can identify.

Given he is a serving ref it is a very well handled reply to a question which could have landed him in much hot water with Obrien.

The response, and if indicative of the attitude of the refs, will do nothing to address the issues.

And perhaps you should have been a journo Gnostic with that level of cynicism

 

[Gnostic]

The inability to write more than a few lines in coherent fashion, atrocious spelling and grammar would preclude me from such a career.

What I said wasn't cynical though, it was a well handled reply to a very tricky question/subject that has raised a lot of ire in some quarters. Any other reply would have received significant angst from those arguing on either side.

 

[Toddy]

I think he answered it with both eyes open rather than the cyclops who made the video.

Yeah the All Blacks "cheat" but so does everyone else. Refs will always miss stuff from both teams. Welcome to the beauty of rugby guys.

 

[Muttonbird]

I think he answered it with both eyes open rather than the cyclops who made the video.

Yeah the All Blacks "cheat" but so does everyone else. Refs will always miss stuff from both teams. Welcome to the beauty of rugby guys.

Watch out who you call cyclops, dude. The video producer is also a moderator here and he rules the place with an iron fist.

 

[Gnostic]

I think he answered it with both eyes open rather than the cyclops who made the video.

Yeah the All Blacks "cheat" but so does everyone else. Refs will always miss stuff from both teams. Welcome to the beauty of rugby guys.

Thanks Toddy you have just gone a long way to proving what I said.

 

[Muttonbird]

Lawrence should have been a politician. He has effectively said he agrees with everybody, whilst taking the position that he will penalise any illegalities he can identify.

Given he is a serving ref it is a very well handled reply to a question which could have landed him in much hot water with Obrien.

The response, and if indicative of the attitude of the refs, will do nothing to address the issues.

What issues?

 

[Toddy]

Thanks Toddy you have just gone a long way to proving what I said.

Cool. Glad I could help.:yay

 

[Gnostic]

What is the underlying theme/subject of the whole thread?

 

[Muttonbird]

"A lot of people seem to be winging about the rules/sanctions etc. and I reckon the Media in this country is mostly to blame." - first line of the thread.

It's saying to me: stop whinging about non-existant issues.

 

[Toddy]

That for the last 8 years refs haven't been able to cope when officiating games that involve the All Blacks?

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Muttonbird - I suggest you just leave it alone.

Nobody on either side is goign to change their mind about what's going on. Scarf, gagger, Dwyer & co. are entitled to their opinions, just as we are ours. Ultimately though, it's the referees who decide the fate. Sometimes you get the rub of the green, sometimes you don't. Ultimately, ifyour on top, you are likely to get the rub of the green more as you it's generally you going forwards, and everybdy knows (& Mark Lawrence observes above) the rules & rulings in rugby tend to favour the attacking teams.

Rest assured, that if the 3N points table didn't bear a stark similarity to the table at the top of this page, very little, if any, of this vindication of the AB's methods would have begun.

 

[Gnostic]

Major - this is exactly the reason I stated that Lawrence's answer was the only one he could give without getting himself in the shit. Neither side of the argument will give way and the refs cannot be seen to take sides or make any binding statements one way or the other. It was a good answer.

But I'm glad he watched the Video all the same.

 

[Muttonbird]

Thanks for the advice MR, but day after day of hand-wringing from those not going forward is starting to get on my nerves.

 

[Scarfman]

Would it be worth putting a poll, which is the essence of the question I tried to raise.

DO YOU THINK THE ALLBACKS ARE CURRENTLY ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH SLIGHTLY MORE THAN OTHER TEAMS?

- YES
- NO

Now, my vote is in Yes. Why are they REGULARLY, SYSTEMATICALLY, able to get away with SLIGHTLY more? I'm not sure. Have the biggest infringer the captain? Maybe a little. Because the head of refs is a Kiwi? maybe a little. Because of the AllBlack aura? Definitely sometimes. Because they are coached to be smarter at pushing the laws? Definitely quite a bit.