Aussie Player Exodus

[Quick Hands]

I think it's a stronger competition than the French Top 14 and UK Premiership which are the two most lucrative provincial rugby competitions in the world.

2016 is likely to be the first time ever that there will be compelling cases that a Wallabies team including foreign based players will be stronger than one without. I still think it is only going to be for a couple of players in each matchday 23 though.

I think it is a complex issue because it is also crucially important to keep domestic rugby as strong as possible because if the numbers of fans fall away then it will surely lead to decreases in players playing the game into the future.

Well we can agree to disagree about whether or not Top 14 and UK Premiership are "provincial" - I'd suggest and they both seem to describe themselves as club competitions.

I agree that it is a complex issue, which is why the ARU need to get on the front foot an manage it. Whatever decisions are taken need to be based on a logical and rational analysis of the implications, not emotional and parochial sentiments, however noble and well-intentioned.

We can always learn things from other nations and other sports, both in what to do and what not to do - they can provide us with some information and evidence to put into our decision making.

The status quo isn't sustainable long term IMO. Once people said that a rugby world cup was impossible, once people said that rugby would never go professional, once people said that super rugby would destroy Currie Cup and ITM cup (but they're both still going strong - just slightly differently) etc, etc, etc.

The world is constantly changing and sport is changing rapidly, the old order of things is changing - not always for the better, but that's the thing with change.

We don't have to like it, but sometimes we need to accept things aren't going to be how we want them. (There are plenty of people out there who would love rugby to be amateur again)

 

[Brumby Runner]

The other aspect that I think needs to be considered is what is happening (or seems to be) in the current French setup. As more and more foreigners (NH and SH) fill the club scene, the weaker the national team seems to become. Maybe the French clubs don't mind that but I think as it gets worse at the national level, as it's bound to, then it won't be surprising if at some future time a cap is put on the number of foreign players in each club squad. Same could happen conceivably in other countries where the mighty $ is king in constructing squads atm. There might be a feedback mechanism about to kick in.

 

[Marcelo]

Kiwis are also suffering:

All Black Charles Piutau has signed a two-year deal with Ulster that is reported to be worth $2 million. Capped just 14 times and on the up in terms of where his AB career was going, 23-year-old Blues flyer Piutau will move to Belfast next year.

Now also the Irish clubs are millionaires?

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

The other aspect that I think needs to be considered is what is happening (or seems to be) in the current French setup. As more and more foreigners (NH and SH) fill the club scene, the weaker the national team seems to become. Maybe the French clubs don't mind that but I think as it gets worse at the national level, as it's bound to, then it won't be surprising if at some future time a cap is put on the number of foreign players in each club squad. Same could happen conceivably in other countries where the mighty $ is king in constructing squads atm. There might be a feedback mechanism about to kick in.

Read recently where the match day 23's for a Top 14 Round comprised >50% France-eligible players & quoting a coupla FFR heavyweights & former player(s) e.g. Serge Blanco stating the pretty fucking obvious: damaging to French rugby & needing to be controlled by way of caps on foreign player numbers.

Kiwis are also suffering:

All Black Charles Piutau has signed a two-year deal with Ulster that is reported to be worth $2 million. Capped just 14 times and on the up in terms of where his AB career was going, 23-year-old Blues flyer Piutau will move to Belfast next year.

Now also the Irish clubs are millionaires?

Ireland at least limit the number of imports. Something like 1 player in each position across the 4 provinces, excluding foreigner players who qualify or might one day qualify for Ireland. I think Connacht had some kind of Rebels-like deal whereby they were allowed additional foreigners but that may have expired.

 

[Scrubber2050]

ARU is slowly but surely getting pushed into a corner.

If players piss off for the bigger dollars I would love to see payments increased to those players that remain loyal to Australian rugby and making sure our Super teams remain competitive

 

[Bullrush]

ARU is slowly but surely getting pushed into a corner.

If players piss off for the bigger dollars I would love to see payments increased to those players that remain loyal to Australian rugby and making sure our Super teams remain competitive

Or alternatively, the Wallaby culture and winning record even more of an incentive to stay.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Or alternatively, the Wallaby culture and winning record even more of an incentive to stay.

Agree but our "culture" is down and winning is not as good as it should be. If potentail Wallabies and current Wallabies are pissing off it must leave the cupboard a bit bare to increase the winning ratios

 

[wamberal]

ARU is slowly but surely getting pushed into a corner.

If players piss off for the bigger dollars I would love to see payments increased to those players that remain loyal to Australian rugby and making sure our Super teams remain competitive

Maybe the ARU should start buying lottery tickets to provide the funds.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Maybe the ARU should start buying lottery tickets to provide the funds.

Or lock up players early and only release them overseas with the payment of a substantial transfer fee.

Example: Higgers is allegedly on $1 .1 million or $1.2 per year. Transfer fee of say 75% of first years contract to the ARU to release him.

 

[Braveheart81]

Or lock up players early and only release them overseas with the payment of a substantial transfer fee.

How exactly do you lock up players early?

Lots of people bring this up but realistically, who in their right mind would sign that contract unless they are being offered big dollars?

Any player with sufficient talent isn't going to sign a long term, low value contract.

 

[Strewthcobber]

How exactly do you lock up players early?

Lots of people bring this up but realistically, who in their right mind would sign that contract unless they are being offered big dollars?

Any player with sufficient talent isn't going to sign a long term, low value contract.

And no union would want a whole bunch of players on their books that don't turn out to be at Pro level. You'd basically have to sign and pay every promising youngster for years, and plenty don't make it.

 

[Scrubber2050]

How exactly do you lock up players early?

Lots of people bring this up but realistically, who in their right mind would sign that contract unless they are being offered big dollars?

Any player with sufficient talent isn't going to sign a long term, low value contract.

Well if they dont sign they can fuck off. No-one is forcing them to play rugby in Australia.

The talent boofheads just need to get it right more times than not.

Obviously if a bloke doesnt develop then cut him. No-one will want him anyway

 

[Wilson]

No need to cut them, if we've got them locked into these ironclad contracts we may aswell send them to work down the coal mines and earn us some money that way.

 

[Braveheart81]

Well if they dont sign they can fuck off. No-one is forcing them to play rugby in Australia.

The talent boofheads just need to get it right more times than not.

Obviously if a bloke doesnt develop then cut him. No-one will want him anyway

Is that idea any different than saying that we should pay all our best players half as much and if they don't like it they can fuck off?

Why would a good player sign a contract that is obviously trying to take advantage of them?

Why would the ARU forgo signing a certain quality player because they didn't want to sign on to a contract that attempted to take advantage of them?

The players rightfully have a fair bit of power in these negotiations because they do have the talent and aren't easily replaceable. It's not like any player given the right coaching and professional environment will become a world beater.

I think your argument has no basis in reality.

 

[BDA]

I do like the idea of somehow compensating the ARU for players going abroad. In theory it would help us to retain more talent in Australia. The big question is how you do that, and I have no idea. It would take some fairly revolutionary ideas.

For instance, you could come up with a system whereby players based overseas agree to give the ARU a small percentage of their earning in their first year abroad . That agreement could possibly be a contractual term for all Australian players that sign a development contract or first year Super Rugby contract. I don't think it would be impossible to implement something like that, provided you got the players' association on board and all the Super clubs.

It would mean that if the ARU signs up the next Quade Cooper next week and then in 4 years time he signs a contract with Toulon for a $1,000,000 per season the ARU would pocket $200,000 (or whatever) from his first year abroad. The ARU can then use that money to help sign other talent.

I suppose it would work in a similar fashion to a no-compete clause.

I think it would be possible to implement those types of agreements with first year players, because they really don't have many option available in terms of getting a start in rugby. Plus if I was signing a first year contract with the Reds I wouldn't be concerned that I could potentially pay a 1/5 of the first year of my $1millon contract with Toulon when I'm a superstar in France in 3 years time. Young players get their break in Australian Rugby, I see no reason this type of system would be unfair.

Then again, this would obviously require a lot more thought than I've given it. But the possibilities are there.

 

[Braveheart81]

If you wanted to put something like that in a contract, wouldn't it be void once the contract expires?

I think it's just a situation where the ARU can't have its cake it eat it too.

The ace they hold is that they are the gateway to playing for the Wallabies. That's why I don't think they should be quick to go down the path of making foreign contracted players eligible for the Wallabies. Flexible contracting arrangements and sabbatical contracts in Japan etc. seem a far more pragmatic route to take.

They operate in a competitive market where there are contracts available overseas at pretty much all levels of professionalism. There will always be players heading off to play overseas. The challenge is to make sure as many players who will play for the Wallabies this year and here and available for selection and also to make sure as many of the players most likely to become Wallabies in the next couple of years are remaining here.

The players most at threat of being lost are those that are test quality but just outside that top up contract position.

 

[Scrubber2050]

The ARU could contract virtually all the young talent (obviously being selective) after school on quite small contracts. The hardest thing is the talent boofs have to try and select young men who will be successful at higher levels. The biggest problem is that the young Islander lads at that age are often bigger and stronger when compared to non- islander (trying to be politically correct here) lads. However lots of those lads fail within a year or 2. but they stand out in the junior years.

If they make Super 15 level then the franchise tops up to a reasonable lelvel. If they don't they are useless anyway to the franchise and overseas anyway.

If they are good enough they go on to Wallaby level and a very good contract.

Then a hefty transfer fee to any club outside of Australia has to be paid to the ARU for the release. Maybe those extra funds are distributed amongst the other Wallabies

 

[Braveheart81]

Where exactly do the ARU get the money to start contracting a large number of school leavers who wouldn't currently get a contract?

What would that contract look like in terms of demands and remuneration? Are they full time professionals?

How long does that contract last for? When that contract expires, the bad players won't be re-signed and the good players will be in a position to demand more money and better conditions.

When there are other options available to players, I don't see how the practice of trying to sign players up to bad contracts with onerous demands on players is every going to be successful.

 

[BDA]

If you wanted to put something like that in a contract, wouldn't it be void once the contract expires?

Not necessarily. contractual terms can survive the expiry of a contract. A No-compete clause is one example, Confidentiality clauses are the same. Although they can be difficult to actually enforce.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Courts in this country have decided you cannot impose a transfer fee on athletes out of contract so any proposal has to take that into account.

Its very hard for me to see how any increase in transfer fees fron contracts which would have to include every promising young player in the country for a substantial length of time would outweigh the cost of all of those long, all encompassing contracts