Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I'm not, I'm holding up world football as the model which is why I had the "not just Australia" phrase in there.
The increasing internationalism of rugby means some things have to change - how much is the question.
Aussie Player Exodus
- Thread starter swingpass
- Start date
I'm not, I'm holding up world football as the model which is why I had the "not just Australia" phrase in there.
The increasing internationalism of rugby means some things have to change - how much is the question.
Strewthcobber
Simon Poidevin (60)
I've said this before but the Wallabies will always be able to put a competitive side on the field if we choose to do so.
Where the exodus is really going to hurt is at Super Rugby level. If it keeps up then we're always going to have 2 or 3 pretty mediocre teams, juat because so many pro level players aren't available and unfortunately they'll generally include the force and the rebels
Where the exodus is really going to hurt is at Super Rugby level. If it keeps up then we're always going to have 2 or 3 pretty mediocre teams, juat because so many pro level players aren't available and unfortunately they'll generally include the force and the rebels
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Outside of the Graft, Corruption and Backhanders World Cup event, when do they play Soccer matches between various Country of Origin All Star Invitation teams that are not called "Friendlies".
Friendly is probably useful term in their world because the round ball community take their GGB World Cup pretty seriously with the Honduras and El Salvador going to war over a World Cup qualifier. El Salvador won and about 2000 people were killed in the War.
I think someone was murdered in South America in Colombia or Equador after they scored an own goal. The Eritrea team defected in 2009, and I'm pretty sure that Iran or Iraq or North Korea teams have got in trouble over their World Cup performances.
Friendly is soccer terminology for not being part of a tournament. So anything outside of World Cup or the various Confederations Cups (Asia, Europe etc) is termed a "friendly".
I don't think much of soccer as a game, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things we can't learn from them (positive and negative). I was in Europe during the soccer world up last year and the way the tournament was structured meant that there were 2 matches on TV every night during the pool and 1/4 final stages and how that maintained interest - even for a family of non-soccer following Australians.
You never stop learning, not liking soccer doesn't mean we should scoff at everything that they do.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Unforunately we have 2 or 3 mediocre teams at the moment and as you say this will be worse the more elite level players go offshore.
While the Wallabies will always put a competitive side on the field, it must also be affected by the exodus of players - at least to some extent.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I won't hold the Socceroos up as an example of how internationalism works in world sport, I'll use the Brazilian Soccer team and the Dutch soccer team.
Of the current 24 players in the Brazilian national squad, 4 play for clubs in Brazil and 20 elsewhere. http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=395
Of the 23 players in the Dutch national squad, 5 play for clubs in the Netherlands and 18 elsewhere. http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=1843
I understand the emotional arguments for maintaining the current policy, but I've yet to hear any calm, dispassionate evaluation of the alternatives. Although the ARU seems to be looking at a whole range of exemptions, which will render existing arrangements redundent in practical terms.
The tide is coming in and the ARU can't hold it back, all they can do is manage it.
Of the current 24 players in the Brazilian national squad, 4 play for clubs in Brazil and 20 elsewhere. http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=395
Of the 23 players in the Dutch national squad, 5 play for clubs in the Netherlands and 18 elsewhere. http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=1843
I understand the emotional arguments for maintaining the current policy, but I've yet to hear any calm, dispassionate evaluation of the alternatives. Although the ARU seems to be looking at a whole range of exemptions, which will render existing arrangements redundent in practical terms.
The tide is coming in and the ARU can't hold it back, all they can do is manage it.
Super Rugby is generally regarded as the strongest provincial rugby competition in the world.
That is where the major difference to soccer lies. All these countries would be picking more locally based players if their local leagues were better quality.
That is where the major difference to soccer lies. All these countries would be picking more locally based players if their local leagues were better quality.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
The difference between the two codes is the difference of the competition level in each home country.
Who has come back from playing overseas - especially in France, the UK etc - and been better for it? Burgess is the latest example of someone coming back and being no better, if not worse, than when they left.
What's the club level of soccer like in Brazil? Does it compare with the comps that the off-shore players are competing in?
Super Rugby, IMHO, is the best place for players to prove their worth (outside of Tests obviously) especially for Sth Hemisphere players.
**EDIT - Braveheart beat me to it
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
The exodus really isn't that bad that we need to even consider the option of picking overseas players...........
It probably only seems dramatic because we hung onto so many players post 2011, but that's because we went into the RWC that year with a fairly young squad and there was a Lions tour around the corner...........
The only significant departures are probably Kepu and White.........
Kepu, as he's far and away our best TH prop, a position we're currently struggling for talent in and we've just lost two up and comers overseas in Longbottom and PAE..........
White, as his test career only just began and he's currently battling it out with Phipps for a starting test spot..............
Otherwise we're mostly losing guys at the end of their careers, or fringe players not on the test radar.............
A significant amount of our best 23 players will be around for another year or two.
It probably only seems dramatic because we hung onto so many players post 2011, but that's because we went into the RWC that year with a fairly young squad and there was a Lions tour around the corner...........
The only significant departures are probably Kepu and White.........
Kepu, as he's far and away our best TH prop, a position we're currently struggling for talent in and we've just lost two up and comers overseas in Longbottom and PAE..........
White, as his test career only just began and he's currently battling it out with Phipps for a starting test spot..............
Otherwise we're mostly losing guys at the end of their careers, or fringe players not on the test radar.............
A significant amount of our best 23 players will be around for another year or two.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
The difference between the two codes is the difference of the competition level in each home country.
Who has come back from playing overseas - especially in France, the UK etc - and been better for it? Burgess is the latest example of someone coming back and being no better, if not worse, than when they left.
What's the club level of soccer like in Brazil? Does it compare with the comps that the off-shore players are competing in?
Super Rugby, IMHO, is the best place for players to prove their worth (outside of Tests obviously) especially for Sth Hemisphere players.
**EDIT - Braveheart beat me to it
I was waiting for these responses.
The Brasileirão had total club revenues of US $1.17 billion in 2012. This makes the Brasileirão the highest revenue football league in the Americas, and the highest outside of Europe's "big five."[17][18] In comparison, it is significantly surpassed by the revenues of Europe's premier international club competitions UEFA Champions League and UEFA Super Cup combined, despite being continental tournaments, which garnished over US $1.78 billion.[19] The Brasileirão's gross revenue is regularly the fifth highest of any American sports league, behind the annual revenues of the four most popular North American major sports leagues (the National Football League, Major League Baseball, National Basketball Association, and the National Hockey League).[20]
The Brasileirão is also one of the world's most powerful football leagues, having a marketing value and worth over US $1.24 billion in 2013.[21] The total worth of every club in the 2013 Brasileirão is US $1.07 billion.[22] TheBrasileirão's television rights are the most valuable ones in the Western hemisphere, worth over US $610 million in 2012; that accounts for over 57% of Latin America as a whole.[23]
The Brasileirão clubs are some of the richest football clubs in the world. Forbes, who annually release figures on club value, listed Corinthians in the top 20 for the 2012 season.[24] The club is the 16th most valuable club in the world, worth over US $358 million. In terms of revenue, Corinthians is also Brazil's richest sports club and the 31st biggest football club in the world, the largest outside of Europe, generating an annual turnover of over US $126 million in 2012. As of 2013, five Brazilian clubs have a brand value strong enough to break into the top-50 list worldwide according to Brand Finance.[25] Corinthians' brand, ranked 19th, is worth US $103 million. The brands of Santos and São Paulo, ranked 38th and 39th, are worth US $65 million and US $62 million, respectively. Flamengo and Internacional are worth US $55 million each and ranked 45th and 46th.
I was waiting for these responses.
I'm not really sure what your point is. Yes, the Brazilian league is good and generates lots of money.
Is it good enough for most of the Brazilian national players who are amongst the best in the world to play in both from a monetary and quality perspective? No.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
The point is that picking players in the national team who play elsewhere doesn't mean that the local competition will fall to bits.
Rugby is about 20 years or so behind soccer, but more and more players are going to move to other countries to play, just like they do in soccer now. Rugby can look to manage that or it can simply pretend things haven't changed and only pick locally based players based on what seem to be emotional rather than logical arguments.
I was asked what the local competition was like in Brazil, 20 teams, highly profitable and of high standard. Doesn't sound like picking overseas based players has affected the local competition much at all to me.
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
Certainly things are going to have change, I'm not sure open selection is the way to go yet though. I'd like to see players free to play anywhere in super rugby, this could help to improve the overall quality of the product and should give us a larger professional player base to draw from.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Ok, I'll bite, stronger than which provincial competitions? Currie Cup, ITM Cup? Aren't all the other professional rugby comps club based? As are all elite soccer comps?
I'm a great supporter of super rugby, but we need to be realistic about its position in the sporting universe.
It's certainly not on this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
That's right, we can manage it and turn it into a positive or just do nothing and be overwhelmed.
I think it's a stronger competition than the French Top 14 and UK Premiership which are the two most lucrative provincial rugby competitions in the world.
2016 is likely to be the first time ever that there will be compelling cases that a Wallabies team including foreign based players will be stronger than one without. I still think it is only going to be for a couple of players in each matchday 23 though.
I think it is a complex issue because it is also crucially important to keep domestic rugby as strong as possible because if the numbers of fans fall away then it will surely lead to decreases in players playing the game into the future.
Propsperspective
Frank Nicholson (4)
As soon as we embrace picking players from overseas the better .. our super clubs can then do the same. Look what Potgeiter has bought to the Tahs, I think come Super 18 we need to get rid of the overseas rule. Loom what foreigners bring to the A league and that comp is flying as are the socceroos
gel
Ken Catchpole (46)
I agree, in the interests of keeping super rugby strong I think that dropping the number of Aussie teams might be best. Tahs, Brumbies and one or both of the Rebels and force would be my pick (depending on if we can pick 3 or 4 teams).
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
Who cares where Super Rugby is in the 'sporting universe'? All that matters is where it is in the rugby universe and it's pretty well damned near the top.
I certainly don't care if it's not very high in the wikipedia list of pro sports leagues by revenues. The reality is that the 3 countries involved in it are regularly the 3 best countries in the world. How many times has a country outside of SANZAR won a RWC?
By the way, do you think the Brasileirão is strong BECAUSE Brazil picks players from overseas or in spite of that fact? Do you think that picking Wallabies from overseas would actually make Australian rugby better?
Finally, I still can't think of any players who came back from France/the UK considerably better players than when they left.....so why would you want to pick anyone from overseas?!
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Whether we like it or not Bullrush, the sporting world is shrinking and professional sportsmen and women are going to ply their trade internationally. More and more that is going to be in the richest leagues. An emotional defence of Super Rugby isn't going to change that reality.
The point about the Brasileirao is that it is strong and at the same time the national side contains players not playing in it.
Most of the players who have left Australia, NZ and SAF have done so at the end of their careers, so obviously they haven't returned as better players. But is that situation going to continue? There are quite a few young players from the 3 countries now playing in professional leagues overseas, maybe, just maybe some of them might end up being the best available player for their position.
The world isn't as black and white (no pun intended) as some may wish.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
Whether we like it or not Bullrush, the sporting world is shrinking and professional sportsmen and women are going to ply their trade internationally. More and more that is going to be in the richest leagues. An emotional defence of Super Rugby isn't going to change that reality.
The point about the Brasileirao is that it is strong and at the same time the national side contains players not playing in it.
Most of the players who have left Australia, NZ and SAF have done so at the end of their careers, so obviously they haven't returned as better players. But is that situation going to continue? There are quite a few young players from the 3 countries now playing in professional leagues overseas, maybe, just maybe some of them might end up being the best available player for their position.
The world isn't as black and white (no pun intended) as some may wish.
Money isn't the only factor that people make decisions on. Believe it or not, some people will stay for less money because they have other goals they want to achieve ie. playing for their country at the highest level in their sport. I think this is why you don't see a huge amount of young NZers leaving - to do so would mean turning their back on a dream and the chance to test themselves on the biggest stage there is.
And if there are young guys leaving to play elsewhere, I think it's highly unlikely that they will ever be the best available. Because the best available play here - again, that's why almost every RWC winner has come from these 3 countries.
And even the one country outside SANZAR to win it was captained by a guy who learnt much of his trade here.
This is not an emotional defense if Super Rugby, it's the facts. By and large, we breed the best teams in the world among these 3 countries.
I believe there are some in SA questioning their selection policy and concerned that it's effecting not just the quality if the Springboks but also the Currie Cup.
Finally, I really think consideration needs to be given to how popular soccer is in Brazil, how global their game is, the size of their economy and their population when comparing their local competition to ours.
As you say, it's not quite black and white
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