ARU moves to kill off club player payments: A 3rd tier, club rugby and the $60k persuader

[Train Without a Station]

Quite.
What you find in most other countries is that they take an existing competition and massage and manipulate it into something palatable and, god forbid, desirable.

Well if the Shute Shield and the clubs had moved to develop into a national comp just like the NSWRL and the VFL did, rather than just worrying about their own patch of grass with no thought for the future this may have happened. Unfortunately this ship has long set sail in Australia. The market is far too congested to gain a significant foothold without the $$$$ to burn. Have a look at what AFL is willing spend so GWS will have support in 20 years time.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

You mean at the time the game was supposedly amateur?
Or at a later time when the ARU was happy to use players developed by those clubs and to provide those clubs with, what, $60k p.a. to keep doing so?
People seem to forget that without the Brisbane and Sydney premier clubs there was no ARU and that those clubs existed long before the ARU did.
The ARU exists to serve the interests of these clubs, their members those who play for them and the subbies and the juniors.
Marginalise them and make them irrelevant and where does you cannon fodder come from?

 

[Train Without a Station]

The point I'm making is if the NSWRU & Shute Shield had developed into a legitimate national comp like the VFL and the NSWRL did we wouldn't be talking about this. Now the ARU has to do the best they can, spending the least they can for the survival of all. That's just how it is. Somebody has got to hurt in the short tem.

 

[Dave Beat]

You mean at the time the game was supposedly amateur?
Or at a later time when the ARU was happy to use players developed by those clubs and to provide those clubs with, what, $60k p.a. to keep doing so?
People seem to forget that without the Brisbane and Sydney premier clubs there was no ARU and that those clubs existed long before the ARU did.
The ARU exists to serve the interests of these clubs, their members those who play for them and the subbies and the juniors.
Marginalise them and make them irrelevant and where does you cannon fodder come from?

The point I'm making is if the NSWRU & Shute Shield had developed into a legitimate national comp like the VFL and the NSWRL did we wouldn't be talking about this. Now the ARU has to do the best they can, spending the least they can for the survival of all. That's just how it is. Somebody has got to hurt in the short tem.

And there is the difference between ARU (interest and money with in them selves)
Australian Rugby, the clubs that work hard for the love off the game

 

[Quick Hands]

The point I'm making is if the NSWRU & Shute Shield had developed into a legitimate national comp like the VFL and the NSWRL did we wouldn't be talking about this. Now the ARU has to do the best they can, spending the least they can for the survival of all. That's just how it is. Somebody has got to hurt in the short tem.

The point is if it's done properly, no-one needs to be hurt. 3T will never compete with AFL or NRL, and it doesn't need to. It needs to provide a link in a logical player pathway and engage grass roots rugby fans.

 

[Dave Beat]

I think the consensus;

• ARU is short on $.
• is 10 team.
• Post Super / Shute / Premier.

First 2 will cause debate and will require negotiating;

1. All players raised through Premier / Shute - must return to Premier Shute.
2. Force, Rebels, Brumbies, field their overseas recruits, and players within their local comps wanting to step up, call it their academy
3. 4 from NSW / 3 from QLD, and the Force, Rebels, Brumbies academy.

Force & Rebs;are always saying they want to develop their local comp and players - this will enable them to. It will provide their local crop with a clear defined pathway and the ability to improve, and be noticed, tested, against the players they want to play with.
For NSW & QLD; again will take some tweaking, I'd like to see and using NSW as an example - Shute continue on as usual on Saturday and Sunday is the 3rd tier with Sydney Uni, Eastwood, Manly, Southern Districts.

Other

1. I'd like to see an achievable pathway for other clubs to reach the third tier, maybe it's promotion / relegation, maybe it is amalgamation - at the start I think the above would be the cheapest, and easiest to introduce.
2. I'd also mindful of allowing the stronger to get stronger. Uni deserve to be their however will this structure simply provide them with another layer to fill and improve depth?
3. Players wanting rugby to form part of their career path gravitate towards these clubs and their grass roots club suffers.

There would no doubt be more points that can be managed, developed and refined. There are teams, and structures in place to assist with simple and economical implementation.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

For NSW & QLD; again will take some tweaking, I'd like to see and using NSW as an example - Shute continue on as usual on Saturday and Sunday is the 3rd tier with Sydney Uni, Eastwood, Manly, Southern Districts.

Presumably the Saturday comp is not permitted to use paid players from the sunday comp?

 

[Dave Beat]

Presumably the Saturday comp is not permitted to use paid players from the sunday comp?

That's what I'd think.
But players from Saturday would be Bench players for Sunday.

 

[I like to watch]

Two things wrong with that.
1,if you run the 3rd tier in the same time frame as the Super comp,there is no point to it.
2. If you allow T3 players to play in the SS, these clubs will destroy the "have nots" and kill the SS.
If the Super clubs are not amalgamations,then it will mean the end of the SS.
The SS is not perfect,but the game is not strong enough to be killing parts of it off,without a thoroughly researched,and planned replacement competition.

 

[Dave Beat]

Two things wrong with that.
1,if you run the 3rd tier in the same time frame as the Super comp,there is no point to it.
2. If you allow T3 players to play in the SS, these clubs will destroy the "have nots" and kill the SS.
If the Super clubs are not amalgamations,then it will mean the end of the SS.
The SS is not perfect,but the game is not strong enough to be killing parts of it off,without a thoroughly researched,and planned replacement competition.

My 3rd point made reference to post Super, I also said post Premier & Shute. I made a mistake there it would be good if it could run in conjunction. Shute Saturday, 3T Sunday.
I'd have the 3T Sunday, and the Premier / Shute Saturday - I don't think the SS should be killed!!!!

What I'm picturing, lets use this years top 4 (Uni, Eastwood, Manly, Southern), they are in the Sunday's 3T comp with all Super Players returning to teams.
Their second grades teams are then playing against the others first grade teams in the SS on Saturday.

Nothing killed, and I agree - don't kill it.

 

[I like to watch]

Another 2 things then.
Why not Norths instead of Manly? If it was to pan out like that,I am sure your enthusiasm would evaporate pretty quickly.
You don't address the player drain issue.All talented players from the "have nots" would migrate to the Super clubs for opportunity.

 

[Dave Beat]

Another 2 things then.
Why not Norths instead of Manly? If it was to pan out like that,I am sure your enthusiasm would evaporate pretty quickly.
You don't address the player drain issue.All talented players from the "have nots" would migrate to the Super clubs for opportunity.

I don't have the solutions, not saying the above is the best solution - but it does tick quite a few boxes.

Because Manly finished ahead of Norths in grade, colts, and CC - that's the simple answer.

North's instead of Manly nah because I have nothing against North's. I'd still be enthused just possibly put forward a different structure / idea. I want all teams to be able to achieve the 3T licence going forward - how, don't have an answer yet.

Is the 3T geographical rep teams, or amalgamations, possibly but I see that as a greater expense.

All talented players from the "have nots" would migrate to the Super clubs for opportunity - I know, and it is not my wish for that to happen, do you have an idea to prevent this????
I had thought about not including Uni and having their Super Players be used to develop a Western Sydney rep team as team 4????

Problem - getting the green light at home to attended rugby on Sat, and Sunday.

 

[I like to watch]

The only way IMO you stop having Super clubs competing with "have nots" is not to have Super clubs.
Unless 3T teams are amalgamations,the 3T will destroy the foundations upon which it is built.

 

[Dave Beat]

The only way IMO you stop having Super clubs competing with "have nots" is not to have Super clubs.
Unless 3T teams are amalgamations,the 3T will destroy the foundations upon which it is built.

I am not anti that idea, it is also an idea I have supported / floated but;

• That would incur a greater cost and the beloved ARU may have to put their hands into pocket.
• It would also require greater time to implement.

Maybe it is developed into that.

 

[I like to watch]

Why the desperate need to have a 3T for 2014?
The ARU cannot afford to fuck this up.
Do the research,workshops etc that takes time,so that we get something that will add to the Rugby landscape,and not be detrimental to the game.

 

[It is what it is]

Guys, why not wait until the proposal is released and then go for it?
We're currently making hypothetical comments on hypothetical assumptions.

 

[Dave Beat]

Why the desperate need to have a 3T for 2014?
The ARU cannot afford to fuck this up.
Do the research,workshops etc that takes time,so that we get something that will add to the Rugby landscape,and not be detrimental to the game.

Not anti that either, but.
I have made reference previously to the disparity between the ARU, and Australian Rugby.
If I referred to Australian Rugby as Shute Shield type people - they do it, and invest time into it for love - they are the ones who have a vested interest in making it work.
With regards to ARU input - they need to step up and ensure players like David Sio and the like are pack playing for Norths "Post" Super Season.

 

[Rugby Central]

If Penrith, Parramatta and West Harbour decide to bid for a collective licence and play as the Mighty Blue Emu Pirates Western Sydney Rugby Club isn't that ok?

Fixed.

This interesting group could look to work with the Western Sydney Wanderers. Give the Wanderers a foothold in winter and summer. The Rugby could tap into a well run administration and and the Football Club can expand its commercial interests; albeit on a limited scale compared to the football operations. And both sides could tap into more supporters - read membership fees and merchandising.

What would be a huge financial boost for the Rugby would be a pittance for the football club.

With the facilities, support and geniuine opportunity to play at a higher level, all those players being paoched from the west would not have to move, or travel. Think of the savings alone for the metrolpolitan clubs on the amount of transport costs no longer incurred on funding players to travel from the Western Sydney for training and matches.

Sounds crazy, perhaps, but worth a look if it helps Rugby in the longer term.

 

[Dave Beat]

Guys, why not wait until the proposal is released and then go for it?
We're currently making hypothetical comments on hypothetical assumptions.

YUP, and with a bity of luck some of the 1%ers (ideas) that are posted get liked and implemented. @I like to watch makes good points, so why not post them.

 

[Rugby Central]

This looks worse than the ARC. Just a few currently influential clubs will get a guernsey effectively killing off the other district clubs and their juniors. We need joint venture teams not this Heinekin model. This model will kill Sydney Rugby. Where is the community base?

Forgive the defensiveness of my comment but WTF.

There are 30 Senior Suburban Clubs in Sydney fielding between 3 and 6 grades each plus another 20 or so fielding between 1 and 3 teams. The sheer arrogance of your comment shows why the SS is falling apart. As part of one of those many Clubs and involved in one of Sydney's largest Junior Clubs I can categorically state the the District SS Club contributes between Buckleys and Sweet FA that is not driven by self interest. So please don't spout crap like "Where is the community base" when the SS has deliberately ignored it for years.

These Clubs will happily go on quite nicely without the SS and wil most likely thrive as the SS collapses under its own arrogance and players move to Subbies for a game.

I don't like this latest bout of cerebral flatulance coming out of St Leonard's but as long as those in the SS believe the universe will end without them, the quicker they will force the ARU's hand to screw them over.