ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[Westie]

100% correct - the failure in keeping the 1000's of kids playing rugby during their final year of school in the game post school is keeping Rugby down.

The so called 'elite rugby schools' are the only group doing anything to increase participation in the game. GT had 120+ boys play open rugby last year - the vast majority of whom would not have been near a local club in over 5 years if at all.

Yeah great, all these kids playing rugby until they leave school then nothing. If they'd been allowed to play club they may have continued playing after school.

 

[Westie]

The schools try to encourage participation in all sports but even if a kid is playing rugby for a club and the school, in Qld certainly, the clubs play during the second term and the school plays in the 3rd term, this makes for a long season especially in the later years with hard rugby. In my experience the school plays in the club competition until grade 8 and then they play in the school comp.

2 terms is a long season?

 

[Westie]

9 rounds in GPS Qld I know it's not the best method but the outcome is good in that the boys operate as a team spending time together at school as well, builds a comeraderie and great team spirit.

9 rounds? Seriously? No wonder we're falling behind.

 

[Happy to Chat]

9 rounds? Seriously? No wonder we're falling behind.

So the GPS competition starts 18 July the training starts February with 4 sessions a week. By the start of term 2 the boys are doing 6 training sessions a week (3 mornings - 5:30 - 7:30 3 afternoon - 15:30 - 17:30) with various pre season games and a rugby tour and you say falling behind, please explain where they are falling behind?

 

[Happy to Chat]

9 rounds? Seriously? No wonder we're falling behind.

You should try being a parent of the program, it's a full time job.

 

[Thomo77]

Yeah great, all these kids playing rugby until they leave school then nothing. If they'd been allowed to play club they may have continued playing after school.

I think there may be a little more than rugby on a young man's mind when he finishes high school and that it's foolish to ignore that all sports see a significant reduction in participation immediately after high school (and, in fact, in the ages from 15-opens).

There's absolutely nothing stopping a lad from strapping on a pair of boots in the year after he finishes school - there are established competitions - there are simply a range of other 'distractions' that afflict all sports and with an already small comparative participation base numbers dwindle.

As a dad of a kid who doesn't attend a traditional 'rugby' school, my greatest concern is him being given the opportunity to continue to play in 16s and 17s. He'll finish school at 17 and it seems the JGC gives him an opportunity that he may not have otherwise got.

 

[Oldschool]

The JGC is definitely helping provide the boys with another pathway and to improve their skills. I think with the added carrot of representing your state, you will see the U17s get stronger over the coming years with more boys enrolling in the program.

 

[Thomo77]

The JGC is definitely helping provide the boys with another pathway and to improve their skills. I think with the added carrot of representing your state, you will see the U17s get stronger over the coming years with more boys enrolling in the program.

Totally agree Oldschool. I know a few U15s that gave the program a miss that are now looking on with more interest having seen their mates make a state side

 

[Informed]

Anyone selected in a state side should be proud of their achievements, regardless of other (GPS, CAS ETC) players not participating. Clearly the academy teams of WA, ACT and Vic have an advantage but in my opinion it has more to do with the resources and ability to train together as opposed to playing numbers to pick from. I suspect some regional teams have found it hard to compete and this may be an issue that is examined next year! The increased exposure of players, coaches and managers to a higher level of the game has to a step in the right direction. The JGC can only get better!

 

[Nessie]

Everyone referes to a higher level of competition which may be the case in the u15 but certainly not in the u17.
I strongly believe the majority of GPS schools in QLD would have beaten all QLD teams in the JGC - having watched all centres play through the tourn I was disapointed at the standard. Watching the WA boys bully Orange was a very low point.
Many boys who are listed as participating in the u17 comp but pulled out for one reason or another before a whistle was blown.
This is a rep team and the boys picked should be very proud but let's not kid ourselves this is not the best u17 boys in QLD

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Who is claiming that they are the best kids in Queensland?

They have been selected as the best kids in the Queensland JGC programme by selectors empowered to do so.

It is extremely difficult for selectors to select players who are not in the programme.

 

[Sunny]

Got to be in it to win it :-D
Congrats to all the boys who made the State teams, hope they all enjoy their experience.

 

[Nessie]

Who is claiming that they are the best kids in Queensland?

They have been selected as the best kids in the Queensland JGC programme by selectors empowered to do so.

It is extremely difficult for selectors to select players who are not in the programme.

Duly noted HJ and you are correct

 

[Delphy]

I strongly believe the majority of GPS schools in QLD would have beaten all QLD teams in the JGC - having watched all centres play through the tourn I was disapointed at the standard. Watching the WA boys bully Orange was a very low point.

Early days, Nessie, early days.

As many are aware, I was a keen observer of WA's tour of Qld in 2014 (particularly the U17's).

Talking to a couple of the Brisbane coaches, it seems that they started training later, ran fewer weekly sessions and those GPS stars who did turn up, arrived only a few weeks prior to the first game. Certainly, in 2014, the WA boys seemed better drilled and fitter than most of the competition, although they were certainly looking tired and a bit ragged in the last game against a very competitive Brisbane Orange.

From what I hear, the situation was much the same this year.

To me that suggests that there is considerable potential for the big centre teams to improve their competitiveness with a more intensive approach.
In addition I don't think it is a problem that JGC isn't eclipsing the GPS standard. What do we have? Is it 9 schools in Brisbane, 6 in Sydney playing at that standard?

Let's assume:

• U15's from earlier JGC years start feeding back into U17's
• The heartland teams from Sydney and Brisbane get sick of being "bullied" by ACT, Victoria and WA and apply greater focus and intensity to their preparation
• And the GPS boys continue to focus on 1st XV (as appears to be happening for the most part)

If all that happens is that the heartland teams achieve GPS equivalency, then we go from 15 teams playing GPS level to maybe 25 teams. I believe that is a realistic goal as the competition develops and the systems get fine tuned.

Add on the benefits of wider talent identification reach, fostering rugby in regional centres and giving the developing states much needed competitive outlets and the potential is magnified for players, coaches and managers.

Finally to clear up a common misconception, I can't speak for Victoria and ACT but the WA teams are not "academy" teams. This link explains the process by which the squads are chosen:

http://rugbywa.com.au/junior-representatives

The number of boys who receive regular "academy" training is very small.

That being said, RugbyWA seems to take this competition very seriously and can focus all of their attention on just 2 teams which must be an advantage.

The ARU could, of course, reduce this advantage by funding another 60 WA coaches, managers and players to tour in 2016. I wouldn't complain about 2 additional squads from WA getting the opportunity.

 

[Tahspark]

Thanks, Delphy - yet another high quality & insightful post given the paucity of our knowledge as to to the comings & goings in the west.

 

[Animal]

Early days, Nessie, early days.

...
That being said, RugbyWA seems to take this competition very seriously and can focus all of their attention on just 2 teams which must be an advantage.

The ARU could, of course, reduce this advantage by funding another 60 WA coaches, managers and players to tour in 2016. I wouldn't complain about 2 additional squads from WA getting the opportunity.

I agree 100% with what you said about the training programme vs not being an academy etc but I just don't see WA having sufficient number players to justify two teams per age group.

In last year’s U14 club competition (feeder for this year’s U15’s) we had 6 Gold division teams and 8 Swan division teams. There is also a 7 team PSA school comp and 6 team non-PSA schools the CSC competition.

Players often play for both school and clubs and assuming an average of 20 players per team we have:

14 club teams = 280

5 School only players = 100
Playing up a year = 20

So that 400 individual and regular players.

Given the selection process this pool of players will systematically be reduced from Regional Trial squads to Regional State Champs squads to JGC Trial squads and lastly JGC Final squads we have:

4 x 32 Regional Trial squads: 128 or 32% of all players
4 x 24 Regional State Champs squads: 96 or 24% of all players
2 x 32 JGC Trial squads: 64 or 16% of all players
2 x 24 JGC Final squads: 48 or 12% of all players.

Having seen the player and parent commitment required I don’t think that it possible to get that % of players to participate in the programme.

Preparing for 5 games in 7 days way different to preparing for 5 games in 5 weeks. We therefore can’t dilute the current training programme just to accommodate more players. WA teams won’t be able to cope with the horrendous 5 games in 7 days schedule and they need to be on top of their game and fitness otherwise they will simply fade away after the second or third game plus triple the number of injuries.

I think it’s far better for Australian rugby if the standards are raised rather than making it more difficult for the smaller unions to compete. In the short term in may mean reducing the number of teams you field and improving your training programmes but also in the long term getting more of your quality players involved.


But as you said its still early days…

 

[Delphy]

Animal,

I completely understand the points you make, particularly in relation to player and parent commitment. Been there, still doing that!

I also think your numbers for "correct year" players and school players are pretty on the money. In those 2 categories you have 380 boys.

Where you and I would perhaps differ is:

• I see the pool of boys capable of playing up (and therefore being part of the available U15 and U17 pools) as being substantially more than the 20 you have allowed for; and
• I think there were some boys who were more than capable of making the grade in JGC who were cut to fit into 2 teams.

Playing Up
I think the better way to view JGC is as being U14/15 and U16/17. This is particularly the case now that there is no National U16 Championship (don't get me started on that).

Including the stronger U14 and U16 players in tours is fantastic for their development and allows them to be the experienced older boys the following year. This approach is not novel. My rough analysis of the Brisbane and Gold Coast teams in Pool D last year suggested that approximately 30% of their players were U16.

Greater Inclusion
The cut from Regional squads to the JGC initial squad saw a number of boys, who were more than capable of making the grade, cut by necessity. The further cut down to the touring team was even more brutal.

Final Numbers
So my thinking is you add, perhaps, 5 or 6 boys who were unlucky not to make the JGC initial squad and leave in those 12 boys who got cut at the final hurdle. Finally you add the more talented contingent from the year below.

That should provide sufficient numbers for 2 squads of U15 and 2 of U17. There is no doubt that we would come back to the field somewhat but then we get back to the debate about the purpose of this comp. Elite or development? I tend to favour the latter.

I concede that where this analysis runs tight is in key positions, particularly in the "tight 5" (do we really care about those guys in Australia anyway?) but to quote the recently departed "life wasn't meant to be easy".

In any event, I suspect that I can advance my ramblings without fear of being proved wrong because the cost of funding another 2 WA teams would be beyond the means of the ARU. We can dream though.

 

[Delphy]

More semi final results:

U15 ACT def Victoria 43 - 22
U17 ACT def Victoria 28 - 24

ACT and WA will face off in both Grand Finals at McGillvray Oval, Perth on 29 March.

 

[Westie]

I think there may be a little more than rugby on a young man's mind when he finishes high school and that it's foolish to ignore that all sports see a significant reduction in participation immediately after high school (and, in fact, in the ages from 15-opens).

There's absolutely nothing stopping a lad from strapping on a pair of boots in the year after he finishes school - there are established competitions - there are simply a range of other 'distractions' that afflict all sports and with an already small comparative participation base numbers dwindle.

As a dad of a kid who doesn't attend a traditional 'rugby' school, my greatest concern is him being given the opportunity to continue to play in 16s and 17s. He'll finish school at 17 and it seems the JGC gives him an opportunity that he may not have otherwise got.

Yeah nothing stopping them but they haven't been near a rugby club in years. They'll just walk away. If they'd been playing club rugby right through there'd be a much greater chance they might continue on.

 

[Westie]

So the GPS competition starts 18 July the training starts February with 4 sessions a week. By the start of term 2 the boys are doing 6 training sessions a week (3 mornings - 5:30 - 7:30 3 afternoon - 15:30 - 17:30) with various pre season games and a rugby tour and you say falling behind, please explain where they are falling behind?

So they start training in Feb 4 times a week for a 9 game comp that starts in July.

We're ranked 6 now right?