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A Proposal For A New Third Tier Competition In Australia

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T

TOCC

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No free to air network is going to pick up midweek games for primetine when they can maximise their profits showing the block, the voice etc.

Mid week is tv channels busy times

Networks would love midweek games, it provides consistent content, its why the NRL/AFL has moved on to Monday and Thursday night games...
The major issue with having those mid-week games is that the clubs hate them because it draws a smaller crowd and potentially gives them a shorter turnaround between a weekend and weeknight game.
 

p.Tah

John Thornett (49)
I have to say I loved the ITM Cup when its played mid week. Understably it was too tough to have 6 or so days of rugby a week, but Tuesday - Thursday is essentially just a shifted playing weekend.
 

REDinCPT

Sydney Middleton (9)
the mid-week varsity league has been fantastic here in south africa with many players progressing to super rugby (i'm sure PaarlBok would be able to name a few) and the spectators appear to have a great time all with beer in hand and lots of good looking girls strutting their stuff. obviously the rugby landscape in south africa is a lot different to australia but i see no reason why an u23 mid-week comp early in the season wouldn't work especially if it's correctly marketed on campus and it gets some sort of coverage on tv, even if it is only highlights on pay-tv.

while it is an excellent comp, it is by no means a true 3rd tier competition. it's a step in the right direction and a good start to getting more people watching rugby but a true 3rd tier comp is still needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Rugby
 

SouthernX

John Thornett (49)
Networks would love midweek games, it provides consistent content, its why the NRL/AFL has moved on to Monday and Thursday night games.
The major issue with having those mid-week games is that the clubs hate them because it draws a smaller crowd and potentially gives them a shorter turnaround between a weekend and weeknight game.

Monday Night football is on pay tv.

I am unsure about the Thursday night game whether its on free to air or pay tv.. I'm just stating the fact.

Sitcoms and reality tv's would draw more advertising dollars in the primetime timeslot then the 3rd biggest footy code in the country.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
the mid-week varsity league has been fantastic here in south africa with many players progressing to super rugby (i'm sure PaarlBok would be able to name a few) and the spectators appear to have a great time all with beer in hand and lots of good looking girls strutting their stuff. obviously the rugby landscape in south africa is a lot different to australia but i see no reason why an u23 mid-week comp early in the season wouldn't work especially if it's correctly marketed on campus and it gets some sort of coverage on tv, even if it is only highlights on pay-tv.

while it is an excellent comp, it is by no means a true 3rd tier competition. it's a step in the right direction and a good start to getting more people watching rugby but a true 3rd tier comp is still needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Rugby
At least we'll see Peter Snor returning to rugby via the Varsity Cup with UWC. I love Varsity Cup it gave our rugby one hellofa boost, not only the timeslot but also produce some real quality players. I did put up threads ion the past about it but its not worth the effort in the Aussie House. Decided to cut back on SA rugby here, this is Australia house.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
Monday Night football is on pay tv.

I am unsure about the Thursday night game whether its on free to air or pay tv.. I'm just stating the fact.

Sitcoms and reality tv's would draw more advertising dollars in the primetime timeslot then the 3rd biggest footy code in the country.

Il dispute this 'fact'... Saturday night NRL games have been on paytv for years and it wasn't because of the lack of ratings..

Multi-channels have changed the whole tv market, broadcasters struggle to get enough fresh content to fill 3 channels.
 

SouthernX

John Thornett (49)
Il dispute this 'fact'. Saturday night NRL games have been on paytv for years and it wasn't because of the lack of ratings..

Multi-channels have changed the whole tv market, broadcasters struggle to get enough fresh content to fill 3 channels.

Tocc

Were we not having an argument about the merits of a 3rd Tier competition being shown midweek on free to air tv?

I fail to see how Saturday night games on payTV backs up your justification for rugby games shown midweek would somehow be a rating bonanza for Ch 10, 9, 7 or ABC.

I guess the only valid point You have in your favor is with the introduction of digital tv there is actually a plethora of new sub channels such as one, go ect. I could see sports being introduced to fill one of those channel but it certainly wouldn't be on the main channel of 10, 9, 7 or ABC but rather the sub channels.
 

churchills cigar

Peter Burge (5)
While the proposal is admirable and shows that at least people are thinking, it also shows they have thought or at least investigated too much into the US model or its practicality.

The reasons the US College program is so successful AND popular has many reasons. The reason it will not work in Australia are also many.

1. There is a very great value placed by the yanks on College allegiance, to the point graduate student become benefactors, thereby providing the funds necessary for the College sport’s program. Alabama’s football program has a budget of $33 million, yes, 33 million, and that’s not the biggest when viewed from what the program is worth to the school in terms of dollars brought in.
And remember, the college players do not get paid one red cent.
What’s in it for our Universities???
2. American Colleges are bigger, generally far bigger with a massive on campus accommodation, hence at home games they have a ready crowd of supporters.
We would enjoy typical subbies type crowds, our students are not at the Uni on the weekend and due to the geography are unlikely to travel there to watch a game of rugby in which they have no interest.
3. They place a large degree of identity with their college, hence home coming etc.
Our Uni’s do not have anywhere near the level of emotional support that is enjoyed in the US.
4. The Colleges have MASSIVE sporting infrastructure. Football stadiums (seating upwards of 100,000) have their own medical triage suites complete with MRI’s and emergency theatres for diagnosis and treatment of injuries etc..
Our Unis (if they have a sporting venue have nothing, not even Sydney Uni would be considered adequate by US standards).
5. Who is going to fund it as so far as infrastructure is concerned.
I’m sure Griffith Uni is not going to fork out the readies to set up training facilities when realistically there is no real positive point for them, Aussie Uni’s do not attract academic patronage on the back of sport whereas in the US this is a big aspect of the system.
6. Additionally, while the US colleges play a number of their games against conference teams they also play games well away from their base – Notre Dame at Detroit played Stanford in San Francisco – there is a great degree of flexibility in the US structure to allow footballers to take such a large amount of time away from study. On campus living is one way to do this, it allows training and study to be integrated easily whereas our players generally will not be staying on campus which can make travel to and from study and training difficult.
Additionally, our system is very rigid with only deferred exams for good reasons. There is very little study flexibility in our system to accommodate this form of behaviour.
7. Cost: from the figures released it doesn’t add up. The previous attempt failed due to lack of funds (and identifiable interest). They propose Australian Universities playing a competition, similar travel distance than the USA – the travel costs will kill it before it’s off the ground, unless an airline kicks in.
8. Lastly, are our Uni’s going to give study scholarships to these players? Our Universities are graded and funded on a complex system of results and are not going to tolerate sub par academics for the sake of sport when it has a direct impact on their federal funding.
The US system has a large emphasis on academic integrity, entry is still determined by high school grades and continued participation in sport (NCAA rules) requires continued academic performance. While the bar isn’t too high, there are footballers in Australia at even national level and super level and certainly premier Grade level who – and let’s be honest, aren’t the sharpest knifes in the draw.

Anyway, just a few thoughts.
While having great positive merit for rugby, I really don't think the plan has been thought out well at all in terms of interested parties.
 

nomis

Herbert Moran (7)
I propose that each current comp, the Hospital, Shute Shield, John Dent etc move away from their current models whereby they have a regular season and a finals series too a systems similar to the EPL - first past the post. Each comp still has a winner in their respective states that rewards the most consistent, so Syd Uni and UQ etc can still win the SS and Hospital Cup. This would require another commitment from each comp which would be to co-ordinate their start dates so that they all finish at the completion of the SuperRugby season.

Once this is complete the top 4 teams from Brisbane and Sydney, top 2 from Canberra, Melbourne and Perth and one each from the Adelaide and Darwin comps move into a 16 team Australian Rugby Club Championships. This would involve a 16 team tournament where their would be 4 pools with 4 teams that would each play each other and then the top 2 teams in each pool would move through to the Quarter Finals and so on. The funding is another issue altogether but would not be insurmountable if their was a broadcast partner and competition advertisers etc. Ideally the ARU would be required to tip in minimal amounts of money.

I really like the idea of traditional clubs being organised to play for national glory. I think it makes club rugby more attractive and prestigious, and I think club rugby could do with a shot in the arm like this.

My only concern with this kind of proposal being used to solve the 3T problem in AUS is that it may not really produce more depth or develop/unearth players more effectively for Super Rugby - which is the real need for any 3T.

I know there were issues with the old ARC and it may no longer be a legit option, but the concept of non-test Super Rugby players mixing it up with the best from club rugby has to be a basic requirement for any 3T I think.

I can see how the university idea might at least develop younger players better than is currently done (and I really like the idea being at least explored further), but I also think we will always be looking for something after the Super Rugby season. It may not be the same as the ARC or ITM/Currie, but we would need at least 8 teams from somewhere, to accommodate the non-test Super Rugby players + the best from the clubs

I'd be happy with traditional clubs being used for this, and letting the market decide. But we would need to be prepared for a rocky start. However, the primary purpose of the 3T should not be to take on the NRL anyway, so it may not matter much.

I still wonder what difference it would have made if the ARC began in a non-World Cup year and had all the test stars available. That window may be shut now, but I'm sure another will open in some form.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
While the proposal is admirable and shows that at least people are thinking, it also shows they have thought or at least investigated too much into the US model or its practicality.

The reasons the US College program is so successful AND popular has many reasons. The reason it will not work in Australia are also many.

But they have rotation policy in most sports so it must work, we must follow.
 

D-Box

Cyril Towers (30)
Having worked at three unis and been heavily involved in the Sporting Association of one university people have suggested could host a team and I can tell you that if the Unis are funding the teams it wont happen. Like everyone they want their names up in lights for as little money as possible. Most universities do not have the facilities to support the teams.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
Tocc

Were we not having an argument about the merits of a 3rd Tier competition being shown midweek on free to air tv?

I fail to see how Saturday night games on payTV backs up your justification for rugby games shown midweek would somehow be a rating bonanza for Ch 10, 9, 7 or ABC.

I guess the only valid point You have in your favor is with the introduction of digital tv there is actually a plethora of new sub channels such as one, go ect. I could see sports being introduced to fill one of those channel but it certainly wouldn't be on the main channel of 10, 9, 7 or ABC but rather the sub channels.

No, my initial point was that the competition should do everything to improve its appeal to broadcasters, which includes midweek games to avoid the clutter/competition on the weekends.

So my only valid point is that there are 9 commercial channels available for broadcasting a sport live mid-week?

We are talking about a hypothetical competition so the ratings return on this is an unknown quantity, but mid-week sport definitely has appeal to broadcasters, it's why Monday, Thursday and Friday night footy has been negotiated into recent broadcasting contracts. You only need to look to the US to see further evidence of this.
 

churchills cigar

Peter Burge (5)
Cal rugby is a 'varsity sport' which means the players get financial aid and preference with regard to acceptance. They get the best local and international talent. They flog everyone, although recently a couple of colleges have boosted their rosters and have beaten them.

Stanford rugby is a 'club sport' which groups it with yoga and table tennis. With no athletic scholarships you end up getting geeks with mouthguards. Stanford forfeited this contest in 2001 as a duty of care issue.

This for me highlights the danger of this proposed 3rd tier. The success or otherwise of a university team is dependent on the extent to which the university backs that team. The contrast between Cal and Stanford or USyd and UNSW is indicative of what a folly this could be. There is no interest in any inter-uni sports and realistically 99.9% of students couldn't tell you what is meant by the term 'tight head prop'.


Typical of Australian lack of understanding and knowledge of NFL and NCAA sport.
Stanford are in fact highly ranked in the BCS, finishing seventh in NCAA ranking and have a very active sports recruiting program, as active as any of those teams with better results.
The only significant difference is academic requirements, their players are demonstrably smarter than the average Joe but as far as athletic ability is concerned, a 'club sport' is a gross mis-understanding and callous disregard of their real quality.
 

James Buchanan

Trevor Allan (34)
Typical of Australian lack of understanding and knowledge of NFL and NCAA sport.
Stanford are in fact highly ranked in the BCS, finishing seventh in NCAA ranking and have a very active sports recruiting program, as active as any of those teams with better results.
The only significant difference is academic requirements, their players are demonstrably smarter than the average Joe but as far as athletic ability is concerned, a 'club sport' is a gross mis-understanding and callous disregard of their real quality.

This has nothing to do with the NFL. Also, by my understanding Rugby is not a NCAA sport, or it is not listed as such.

So, making dismissive posts about how people do not understand such things have absolutely zero relevance to the issue at hand. That issue is: how rugby is treated at the respective schools.

The assertion is that it is treated seriously at Cal and not as seriously at Stanford. It has nothing to do with how the overall sporting programs are handled, simply how the schools in question treat rugby.

I hope that clarifies matters for you.
 

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
Typical of Australian lack of understanding and knowledge of NFL and NCAA sport.
Stanford are in fact highly ranked in the BCS, finishing seventh in NCAA ranking and have a very active sports recruiting program, as active as any of those teams with better results.
The only significant difference is academic requirements, their players are demonstrably smarter than the average Joe but as far as athletic ability is concerned, a 'club sport' is a gross mis-understanding and callous disregard of their real quality.
What precisely, churchill's cigar, do "NFL", "NCAA sport" and "BCS" have to do with Stanford Rugby?

The NFL is the National Football League, the highest standard of professional American football in the United States. As of today Stanford Rugby had not been admitted to the NFL.

The NCAA is the National College Athletic Association. It includes 19 men's sports: rugby is not one of them. It also includes 20 women's sports: rugby is not one of them.

The BCS is the Bowl Champion Series which matches college football's No. 1 team from NCAA Division 1-A against the No. 2 team each year to determine the national champion. The code of football played is American football. My interest in things American is on a par with my passion for the sport of speed crochet, but I would be excessively surprised if there had been a move to change the code to rugby.

In relation to Stanford Rugby you assert that describing it as "a 'club sport' is a gross misunderstanding". Apparently the good folk at Stanford share that misunderstanding, for their website states: "Rugby is a club sport at Stanford".
.
 

Torn Hammy

Johnnie Wallace (23)
Typical of Australian lack of understanding and knowledge of NFL and NCAA sport.
Stanford are in fact highly ranked in the BCS, finishing seventh in NCAA ranking and have a very active sports recruiting program, as active as any of those teams with better results.
The only significant difference is academic requirements, their players are demonstrably smarter than the average Joe but as far as athletic ability is concerned, a 'club sport' is a gross mis-understanding and callous disregard of their real quality.

Typical US myopia. Make sure you understand the topic before you criticise. We are talking RUGBY not NFL.

The only 'varsity' rugby programs are at Cal, Life and BYU. Harvard have a female rugby 'varsity' program as well.

At all other colleges, including Stanford, RUGBY is classed as a 'club sport'.
 

liquor box

Peter Sullivan (51)
What precisely, churchill's cigar, do "NFL", "NCAA sport" and "BCS" have to do with Stanford Rugby?

The NFL is the National Football League, the highest standard of professional American football in the United States. As of today Stanford Rugby had not been admitted to the NFL.

The NCAA is the National College Athletic Association. It includes 19 men's sports: rugby is not one of them. It also includes 20 women's sports: rugby is not one of them.

The BCS is the Bowl Champion Series which matches college football's No. 1 team from NCAA Division 1-A against the No. 2 team each year to determine the national champion. The code of football played is American football. My interest in things American is on a par with my passion for the sport of speed crochet, but I would be excessively surprised if there had been a move to change the code to rugby.

In relation to Stanford Rugby you assert that describing it as "a 'club sport' is a gross misunderstanding". Apparently the good folk at Stanford share that misunderstanding, for their website states: "Rugby is a club sport at Stanford".
.
Is speed crochet a NCAA sport?
 
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