3rd tier is back in 2014 [Discontinued]

[Quick Hands]

We aren't talking about boundless scholarships. We are talking 5-6 a year and they don't necessarily have to be massive.

Why would Universities already be giving away free scholarships unless they benefited somehow (i.e. Part of a naming rights sponsorship package)?

This university idea would further entrench in the public mind that rugby is an elitist sport for private schoolboys and university students.

Rugby administrators could just try to do what just about every other major sport in the country does and set up its own system of player development from minis to international that is club based. This obsession with private schools and now universities is the thinking that has us where we are today.

 

[Dave Beat]

If I were a cynic I'd say that the Sydney JV's are being asked to unearth and develop the cannon fodder for the Rebels and Force for no reward.
Luckily I am not a cynic.

That's not being a cynic, that is reflecting on the obvious - whilst it will develop new players surely some criteria needs to be placed on starting players from WA & VIC.

But the math to say "if 50%" I simply can't understand how that is arrived at. Are they interpreting the 3T criteria differently to this forum?

I'm not so worried about the ACT as they have unearthed allot of Wobs over the years who have drifted Nth to Sydney.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

That's not being a cynic, that is reflecting on the obvious - whilst it will develop new players surely some criteria needs to be placed on starting players from WA & VIC.

But the math to say "if 50%" I simply can't understand how that is arrived at. Are they interpreting the 3T criteria differently to this forum?

I'm not so worried about the ACT as they have unearthed allot of Wobs over the years who have drifted Nth to Sydney.

I have noticed quite a shift in the forum: Brisbane seem happy with 2 teams - I am very surprised by that.
Rebels & Force supporters also seem happy. As does SA. Not surprised by any of that.
Sydney is being asked to do all the heavy lifting (luckily a few egos are up to it) and the privately owned Rebels and the Force will cherry pick the talent to the eternal detriment of Sydney rugby - because next year those cherry picked will not be released for Shute Shield or even the NRC.
Proceed with caution.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

This university idea would further entrench in the public mind that rugby is an elitist sport for private schoolboys and university students.

Rugby administrators could just try to do what just about every other major sport in the country does and set up its own system of player development from minis to international that is club based. This obsession with private schools and now universities is the thinking that has us where we are today.

think I'll have a new signature!

 

[suckerforred]

I have noticed quite a shift in the forum: Brisbane seem happy with 2 teams - I am very surprised by that.
Rebels & Force supporters also seem happy. As does SA. Not surprised by any of that.
Sydney is being asked to do all the heavy lifting (luckily a few egos are up to it) and the privately owned Rebels and the Force will cherry pick the talent to the eternal detriment of Sydney rugby - because next year those cherry picked will not be released for Shute Shield or even the NRC.
Proceed with caution.

I think Brisbane is happy with 2 teams because we realise that there is a HUGE gap between Super & Club so 'watering' it down anymore is just going to mean that some or all of the teams will become whipping boys. This does not mean that in the future we might won't want more teams. Just need to start with baby steps.

As to Sydney - Being the biggest source of players of course they are going to have to supply the majority of players and this is not going to change in the short term. This competition needs to be seen as a long term proposition. With the Rebels, Force & Brums wanting their players to remain in local competitions it will mean that the local comps will get stronger and the local players will then not feel the need to go to Brisbane or Sydney to be considered for a contract at Super level. It will also mean, hopefully, that players in these centres won't switch codes as much as they will not have to move away from family and will be able to see a pathway.

THIS IS NOT A SHORT TERM THING. That is the reason that the ARC failed. It's goals were to short sighted. These outcomes will not happen in 1, 2, 3 or possibly even 5 years. But this is the ultimate goal. IMO anyway.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

I have noticed quite a shift in the forum: Brisbane seem happy with 2 teams - I am very surprised by that.
Rebels & Force supporters also seem happy. As does SA. Not surprised by any of that.
Sydney is being asked to do all the heavy lifting (luckily a few egos are up to it) and the privately owned Rebels and the Force will cherry pick the talent to the eternal detriment of Sydney rugby - because next year those cherry picked will not be released for Shute Shield or even the NRC.
Proceed with caution.

I chuckle at the lack of cynicism!

You may be right, but players not being released for NRC next year is probably a little pre-emptive. This assumes everything went well with the NRC in 2014 to begin with. Making the assumption it does and it's back for 2015, I would expect nearly all non injured, non wallaby players will be allowed to play. Particularly given 35-40 of the better ones will be in England at the time of the NRC.

 

[suckerforred]

Sydney is being asked to do all the heavy lifting (luckily a few egos are up to it) and the privately owned Rebels and the Force will cherry pick the talent to the eternal detriment of Sydney rugby - because next year those cherry picked will not be released for Shute Shield or even the NRC.
Proceed with caution.

And considering that the the NRC is going to happen after Super Rugby has finished then I would expect that they will be released for the NRC. I would also expect that this will be driven from the ARU level.

I am guessing that the reason the Force & the Rebels donot release their players during the Super season is risk of injury and travel expectations. Reds & Tahs players just have to go to their local oval for play & training with their club. Rebels & force players have a 2 - 5 hour flight if their club is in Brisbane or Sydney. It is not all a conspircy against the Sydney clubs.

Just Saying.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Suckerforred,

The Brumbies identified injury management as a key reason they made playing in the Canberra competition mandatory for all players. They were able to assess any non-squad member who played club rugby, immediately, rather than upon returning from interstate.

 

[Train Without a Station]

It appears this has come back full circle to the who owns the players argument.

Who does?
Whoever offers them the best deal.

Why would the Sydney clubs want to help develop talent so the other franchises can just "cherry pick" this talent from them?
Because providing players to Super Rugby is the best advertisement for a club/3T JV. If some young player is deciding which club to go to or possibly league instead, I'm sure the club that has develop a large number of players into professionals is the one they'll choose to go to.

If you don't like it, then don't develop any talent, because I'm sure every other club will be happy to fall over themselves in order to demonstrate they have the ability to turn amateurs into professionals in order to attract the best players, whilst you fall from relevance.

 

[suckerforred]

Suckerforred,

The Brumbies identified injury management as a key reason they made playing in the Canberra competition mandatory for all players. They were able to assess any non-squad member who played club rugby, immediately, rather than upon returning from interstate.

My point exactly.

 

[Quick Hands]

Having 3 or (hopefully) 4 3T teams based in Sydney and drawing on SS teams and the Waratahs may well also demonstrate the talent produced by SS clubs. Based on my viewing of the quality of rugby in the SS finals series in the past couple of years, I'm reasonably confident about the talent there. Particularly if SS players from non-semifinal teams are added to a JV.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

So now that everyone is listening and we have furious agreement: the foregoing posts reveal the very reason that the country cannot afford to risk damaging the Shute Shield.
At the risk of cyclo correcting me its like a doctor's obligation: first do no harm.

 

[Highlander35]

To put it bluntly, fuck the shield.

It's reasonable to say that for the purposes of the new third tier tournament, players playing for the Melbourne Franchise should be selected from the Dewar shield etc.

But it's entirely unreasonable, and disgustingly parochial, to suggest that players are owned by "their" club, and should be required to travel 2 hours from Melbourne, or 5 hours from perth to play in what is still at heart an amateur competition.

The game is professional. The player's don't owe clubs anything. The Provinces do owe the clubs something, but not to the extent you are suggesting it.

 

[Slim 293]

Precisely, and I know I've posted this multiple times but here it is again............

The only sensible way for this to work is for all the Super Rugby contracted players to be playing for NRC teams within the states their respective Super Rugby franchises represent.

And with that, NRC teams should only be able to draw on non-Super Rugby players playing in clubs within their region.

So, while the Super Rugby talent will be thinned out in NSW and Qld amongst the multiple teams, they will also have the benefit of drawing from a higher quality pool of players from within the Shute Shield and Qld Premier Rugby.

 

[suckerforred]

So now that everyone is listening and we have furious agreement: the foregoing posts reveal the very reason that the country cannot afford to risk damaging the Shute Shield.
At the risk of cyclo correcting me its like a doctor's obligation: first do no harm.

But what is best for a 3T comp, and the good of Aust Rugby, IS going to damage the shield, according to you, because the dynamics of where players are playing will change.

Yes the Sydney, and Brisbane, club scene has been the breeding ground for players in the past and is likely to continue to be so. However, look where we are? You are seriously not going to try to tell me that all is rosey and we do not have to change anything?

I appologise in advance if I have taken your most to be serious.

 

[Quick Hands]

To put it bluntly, fuck the shield.

It's reasonable to say that for the purposes of the new third tier tournament, players playing for the Melbourne Franchise should be selected from the Dewar shield etc.

But it's entirely unreasonable, and disgustingly parochial, to suggest that players are owned by "their" club, and should be required to travel 2 hours from Melbourne, or 5 hours from perth to play in what is still at heart an amateur competition.

The game is professional. The player's don't owe clubs anything. The Provinces do owe the clubs something, but not to the extent you are suggesting it.

But under this model, super players won't be able to play SS or Brisbane Premier rugby as they will all conclude at the same time, so it's really nothing more than a debating point.

Slim 293 has summed it up (multiple times).

 

[Quick Hands]

But what is best for a 3T comp, and the good of Aust Rugby, IS going to damage the shield, according to you, because the dynamics of where players are playing will change.

Yes the Sydney, and Brisbane, club scene has been the breeding ground for players in the past and is likely to continue to be so. However, look where we are? You are seriously not going to try to tell me that all is rosey and we do not have to change anything?

I appologise in advance if I have taken your most to be serious.

It depends what one's definition of "damaged" is though. Sydney clubs see little or none of their Wallabies and only see super players for the tail end of the season and the finals. This in fact distorts the competition, so that quite often the teams leading at the end of the super season drop back and Sydney Uni in particular make a charge. It could well be argued that this will strengthen the SS as all teams will now be on a level playing field - no super or test players involved so that the clubs who have developed their own talent will reap the rewards, both in results and reputation.

 

[Dave Beat]

But what is best for a 3T comp, and the good of Aust Rugby, IS going to damage the shield, according to you, because the dynamics of where players are playing will change.

IMO what is best, and the reason why WA, and VIC possibly put in an EOI into the 3T is so they can then develop their own players from within their comp and thus strengthen and create a greater depth within Aus rugby.

And thus not having to continue to pilfer from NSW & QLD, whilst they draw on NSW & QLD it limits exposure from within their local comps.

Yes it is correct to have the best players exposed to the 3T - I have never disputed that. But it should be noted that NSW & QLD are looking to field multiple teams via JV's which don't play a game until it starts, whereas VIC & WA will possibly be fielding their Super teams that have been playing since Feb (less a couple of Wallabies).

As per one of the posts above, it is in every clubs interest to their players strive for the Gold Jersey and any Rep Jersey in between. Whether it be a Super Team, or a 3T team I think we should all be working together and not building walls between states.

 

[Quick Hands]

IMO what is best, and the reason why WA, and VIC possibly put in an EOI into the 3T is so they can then develop their own players from within their comp and thus strengthen and create a greater depth within Aus rugby.

And thus not having to continue to pilfer from NSW & QLD, whilst they draw on NSW & QLD it limits exposure from within their local comps.

And this strengthens everyone, but it's long term. I've always said that the Force and Rebels will considered a success when they can draw around 50% of their players locally. This broadens the base of the pyramid across Australia, while having multiple 3T teams in Sydney and Brisbane gives many more players in those cities the chance to prove themselves at a higher level.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

But what is best for a 3T comp, and the good of Aust Rugby, IS going to damage the shield, according to you, because the dynamics of where players are playing will change.

Yes the Sydney, and Brisbane, club scene has been the breeding ground for players in the past and is likely to continue to be so. However, look where we are? You are seriously not going to try to tell me that all is rosey and we do not have to change anything?

I appologise in advance if I have taken your most to be serious.

Its serious.
But the thread is becoming circular. I shall have one last go and then retire for a while.
Your position is only tenable if you know that the NRC will succeed: if that was a given then the ARU would be prepared to back it (WITH $$$$$$ for the teams), wouldn't it? The ARU thinks there is enough risk of failure that it is not prepared to stake its future on the idea.
The fact that it acknowledges it has no future without "a 3rd tier" is further proof of its lack of real faith in this model.
There were other models that did less damage to what we have but provided scope for evolution to a true third tier. It is a matter of judgment as to whether it was too late in the day to give them a go rather than going all in on red.
The days fly by and nothing more than something between an 8 and 10 team comp of unknown makeup with alternative, self contradictory bids (ACT/Vikings for instance) is known in rugby's heartland.