2017 Under-20 Competitions including Oceania & World U20s

[Rebels3]

The lads played superbly this morning.

But i'll leave with this photo for a 'try' that was incredibly awarded by an English TMO. Possibly one of the worst tmo decisions iv ever seen and basically deprived the young guys the chance of making the finals.

 

[Highlander35]

Is anything on the ground there?

The only thing close is the left leg, and it looks like Hutchinson is completely underneath it.

Albeit I've only seen that picture. I wouldn't​ have given it on "try no try", but I would on "any reason I cannot award the try".

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[Rebels3]

Is anything on the ground there?

The only thing close is the left leg, and it looks like Hutchinson is completely underneath it.

Albeit I've only seen that picture. I wouldn't​ have given it on "try no try", but I would on "any reason I cannot award the try".

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Very, very dangerous territory to award this as a try. Chances are 99/100 times his leg would touch the ground. Especially with more than a foot to go till he touches the ground. Also i'm pretty sure Hutchinson hasn't got a different skin complexion on his arm

 

[pissedoffihavetoregister]

Damn shame.
Stupid bloody tackle tho.

 

[sidelineview]

To be honest, when viewing the slo mo replay it looked like a fair try and an incredible effort by the England winger.

The result of a big game can come down to just one mistake; actually there were 3 mistakes towards the end of the game including not taking the shot at field goal.

Gotta feel for the poor buggers. They played their hearts out.

 

[Braveheart81]

The disappointment of losing that game was how well we played and how much we dominated key aspects of the game, particularly the collisions and couldn't turn that into more tries.

The tackle by Johnson-Holmes was silly and it is something we have been guilty of too often in this tournament. Three lifting tackles for three yellow cards which is ridiculous. It is a discipline issue. As soon as you lift a player off the ground you have a low probability of the tackle being legal.

Very, very dangerous territory to award this as a try. Chances are 99/100 times his leg would touch the ground. Especially with more than a foot to go till he touches the ground. Also i'm pretty sure Hutchinson hasn't got a different skin complexion on his arm

It's very hard to tell and the shadows don't help.

Looking where the English player's left foot is, it makes it clear that it can't be his left knee that is planted on the ground already and has to by Hutchie's leg.

The reverse angle which showed both his feet off the ground made it look like the English player was entirely clear of the ground.

I think it is tough to pin that as a bad decision.

 

[Rebels3]

The disappointment of losing that game was how well we played and how much we dominated key aspects of the game, particularly the collisions and couldn't turn that into more tries.

The tackle by Johnson-Holmes was silly and it is something we have been guilty of too often in this tournament. Three lifting tackles for three yellow cards which is ridiculous. It is a discipline issue. As soon as you lift a player off the ground you have a low probability of the tackle being legal.




It's very hard to tell and the shadows don't help.

Looking where the English player's left foot is, it makes it clear that it can't be his left knee that is planted on the ground already and has to by Hutchie's leg.

The reverse angle which showed both his feet off the ground made it look like the English player was entirely clear of the ground.

I think it is tough to pin that as a bad decision.

My bane with these decisions tho, is the probability is more likely he touched the ground first. Infact the probability of him touching the ground would be considerably higher than it of him grounding the ball. That's where the decision should go then and vise versa if that was the case.

His back leg is going to collapse before his body reaches the ground - most likely
There was also suspicion of his foot hitting the ground prior to this frame.
Then you can't confirm that his knee isn't already on the ground.

There's just too much grey around to give the decision. But by the TMO rules, if you can't confirm it then i guess it is what it is.

 

[Happy to Chat]

The boys we're gutted that they lost last night because they played their hearts out and never left anything out there on the park and also I don't think we should be blaming anyone, a split second reaction or a bad decision by a ref will always be a part of the game. They lost but they will be better for it the next time they are in the same situation. Well done boys you've made us proud.


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[Inside Shoulder]

Haven't seen the match yet but I'm prepared to say, sight unseen, they must have done very well

 

[Braveheart81]

My bane with these decisions tho, is the probability is more likely he touched the ground first. Infact the probability of him touching the ground would be considerably higher than it of him grounding the ball. That's where the decision should go then and vise versa if that was the case.

His back leg is going to collapse before his body reaches the ground - most likely
There was also suspicion of his foot hitting the ground prior to this frame.
Then you can't confirm that his knee isn't already on the ground.

There's just too much grey around to give the decision. But by the TMO rules, if you can't confirm it then i guess it is what it is.

We don't work on probabilities though and I'm also not sure your assumptions are correct.

The leg would most likely hit the ground first if it was a dead weight falling because it started closer to the ground.

Clearly the player is propelling his hand (and the ball) towards the ground though so it is closing the gap between him and the ground faster than the knee is.

I don't think you can say that the knee probably touched the ground first. We have evidence of the ball being grounded correctly and then need to find evidence that he was in touch prior to or when that happened to say it isn't a try.

 

[Rebels3]

The boys we're gutted that they lost last night because they played their hearts out and never left anything out there on the park and also I don't think we should be blaming anyone, a split second reaction or a bad decision by a ref will always be a part of the game. They lost but they will be better for it the next time they are in the same situation. Well done boys you've made us proud.


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Nice post, made me read through my posts on the game and realised i just look like a whinger lol. Better not take away from a good performance from the youngsters and a good performance from the English to

 

[Inside Shoulder]

as soon as you lift a player off the ground you have a low probability of the tackle being legal.

The simple rule now across all levels is do not lift - if you do your fate will be in the hands of the officials

 

[I like to watch]

The boys we're gutted that they lost last night because they played their hearts out and never left anything out there on the park and also I don't think we should be blaming anyone, a split second reaction or a bad decision by a ref will always be a part of the game. They lost but they will be better for it the next time they are in the same situation. Well done boys you've made us proud.


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No shame in bowing out like that.
I thought they were tremendous last night, well done boys!
As an aside I thought the England try was a good call.
Their winger did unbelievably well....

 

[sidelineview]

The contentious try by the England winger was replayed several times in slow motion before a decision was made. It was a fair try in my book.

These type of tries are scored every week in rugby league. The modern day wingers show amazing skill in flying through the air and grounding the ball one handed from seemingly impossible positions.
They no doubt practice it.

That try was very timely for England but it didnt lose the game for the Aussies.

 

[Braveheart81]

The simple rule now across all levels is do not lift - if you do your fate will be in the hands of the officials

Yep, even with ones where you're not lifting the player particularly high or badly are likely to end up beyond the horizontal because most ball carriers will start twisting and looking for the ground so they can place the ball that on their side when they land.

 

[sidelineview]

Yep, even with ones where you're not lifting the player particularly high or badly are likely to end up beyond the horizontal because most ball carriers will start twisting and looking for the ground so they can place the ball that on their side when they land.

Thats true.
In the good old days that tackle would have been applauded as a great tackle. It was a dominant tackle which is what you want to see.
And it wasnt that much above the horizontal.

So how do coaches teach players now to avoid being carded for a strong head on tackle?
Should the player drive his legs forward and therefore drive the attacking player backwards? It happens quickly.
It would interesting to hear about it from a coachs point of view.

 

[Braveheart81]

Thats true.
In the good old days that tackle would have been applauded as a great tackle. It was a dominant tackle which is what you want to see.
And it wasnt that much above the horizontal.

So how do coaches teach players now to avoid being carded for a strong head on tackle?
Should the player drive his legs forward and therefore drive the attacking player backwards? It happens quickly.
It would interesting to hear about it from a coachs point of view.

Surely you have to teach not to drive up and to only drive straight ahead or down towards the ground.

Lifting the player off the ground was always tempting because then you can drive them backwards more easily because they have nothing to push back with but invariably you're going to tip them beyond the horizontal.

 

[sidelineview]

Yeah, its bloody tricky though isnt it?
It happens in a split second and momentum plays a part.
Its a challenge for the modern day coaches.
No wonder so many teach to tackle higher now when executing a front on tackle.

 

[Phantom]

I've not seen the game, only read reports and this forum. I did take the time to go through the game stats as provided by rugby.com, from the stats alone it looked as though the boys really dominated every part of the game yet the score board suggests otherwise. Were we playing lateral again? forwards not going forward? Backs clean ball?
Your thoughts please.

 

[Micheal]

They lost but they will be better for it the next time they are in the same situation. Well done boys you've made us proud.

I think an important thing to note is that in situations like this, they CAN be better for it next time around, but this is not guaranteed.

There's certainly a component of self learning in it as the next time the boys are defending a close lead they'll know what did, and didn't, work last time but I also think there has to be an institutional element to it lest we create or enable a losing culture.

I work within the startup field and all high growth tech young companies (or however you want to define a startup) that go through accelerator or incubator programs, or receive VC investment, are given mentors to protect the developing companies against the mistakes of those who walked before them.

Could something like this work for the u20s?

Could this years leadership team be parachuted into next years camp?

If even only for one night, it could be structured something like this:

5pm: arrival and each member of the leadership team mingles with their respective position / unit (eg backline/forward pack).

5.30pm: the leadership team presents on their own journey through the last u20 RWC, what they learnt, the standards required and the highs / lows of their experience. They could also hand out email addresses or phone numbers for the players to direct any future questions to.

6pm: dinner with the team.

7pm: video analysis of moments that defined their RWC. For instance this years lads could watch the second half and advise where they went wrong and how future teams could learn from that.

It'd be relatively cheap and informal yet would serve to create a "fraternity" around the team and hopefully inspire the u20s lads about how close they are to professional footy / higher levels (eg if Tuipolotu and Perese returned next year they have that Super experience under their belt to speak from).

I fucking hate typing on my iPhone but hopefully you know what I mean.