2015 IRB Junior Rugby World Cup - Italy

[Inside Shoulder]

are the oz pigs fit??
a lot of walking in the first half.
Ref a bit all over the shop on scrum penalties - Saffer THP on his knees given the benefit of the doubt and we cough a penalty on their line for the same thing.
That said he'll always favour the clearly dominant pack which the Saffers were in all facets.

 

[PaarlBok]

No definetily not saying that, just pointing out that there is a major doping issue, not just in SA, but also in England which the article was about.

Looking at the size of Aussie boys, would be hard to believe they were doing anything or atleast they are doing it very wrong.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11400474

 

[saulityvi]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11400474

Looks like I poked in a soft spot

These kids are on the verge of either making it onto the pro-stage or then not, and if someone tells them 'if you just were abit bit bigger' and they propably hear it 'use roids or you wont make the cut'

Same problem around the globe. Here in Finland ice hockey juniors do illegal supplements in the hope of becoming pro players.

Im sorry if I made it sound like baby boks are all cheating little pricks, but the sad reality is, propably some of them are doing doping, that does not mean they would not work hard, only using steroids wont take you anywhere, you still have to work harder than the blokes next to you.

This is the last post from me about this subject.

 

[Brian Westlake]

One selection policy I would have is not pick anyone who plays colts. Only pick players who have been playing grade for at least a year.

In saying that, the standards differ greatly state to state. Some of the kids playing grade in one state would be 3's colts at your club Qwerty

 

[Brian Westlake]

Looks like I poked in a soft spot

These kids are on the verge of either making it onto the pro-stage or then not, and if someone tells them 'if you just were abit bit bigger' and they propably hear it 'use roids or you wont make the cut'

Same problem around the globe. Here in Finland ice hockey juniors do illegal supplements in the hope of becoming pro players.

Im sorry if I made it sound like baby boks are all cheating little pricks, but the sad reality is, propably some of them are doing doping, that does not mean they would not work hard, only using steroids wont take you anywhere, you still have to work harder than the blokes next to you.

This is the last post from me about this subject.

Thank God.
It isn't needed.

 

[Brian Westlake]

I am finding it very hard to comprehend how everyone has just accepted this loss as the one that "had" to happen. Qwerty51 raised it and I posted a rant that was slapped down as an anti qld stance. The hue and cry was "But he is S15" or "He is this or that". I am sorry, but it just doesn't rub with me.
The age old adage is; If this is the best that we can provide, blame the system and review immediately. If it isn't; look to the heirachy and review immediately.

We need to stop blowing smoke up these kids arses telling them how wonderful they are and saying they are S15 or whatever ( there is a massive amount of irony with one avatar here ).
Look at the young men from SA that comprehensively owned our 8. Yes they are big. And for the slings and barbs of some people casting doubts, please look at the heritage of these young Jaarpies. They are getting bigger. So are the Dutch, So are the Japanese. Funny that... It happens. Darwinism maybe? Ask your sons and daughters, are they not bigger than you? I know I have outgrown my mum and dad.
But back to our dilemma. The pandering and mollycoddling that has developed with the generation of kids coming through has dragged us back to lower than Scotland. I don't feel comfortable about this in any way, shape or form.
I have to ask why all the cries of he is this and that means anything when the end result showed a fair reaming.
Where do we start? I don't know.
Probably looking at making kids earn the spot, not tag as a "future" or a "development" project. This hasn't worked. The Jaarpie Academy system, The English Academy system have both seemed to work.

 

[Bobby Sands]

^^ Because we are grown men, and we see the match for what it is.

The boys lost to a much better side, bad luck.

Unless you want to go and make systematic change with the ARU Junior Programs, and if you do good luck.

But I just support them and leave the head-scratching to those more equipped to improving the situation.

 

[Marcelo]

. Looked like our forwards were 10kg lighter per man than the advertised3 kg. our tight five were simply mauled, I thought back 3 in the pack went ok considering absolutely no pill, Agree with your assessment of backs , Duncan,placid and kelloway were outstanding on the scraps they could get there hands on. Deegon had a average game, hammered a couple of times, did well to get up after the last hit.

I agree. ARU should improve the fitness program at U20s level. Baby Boks and Pommies are bigger and stronger than our players.

New S&C coaches and a new fitness program at this level. Something they are doing wrong or just other Unions have higher fitness programs.

More protein shakes and creatine for these children. The Baby Boks are beasts

The money that ARU save without contracts of Genia, Horwill, QC (Quade Cooper) and all the superstars who will go to Europe must be invested in protein shakes and creatine for these guys.

Also ARU should make long-term contracts to the good young players so they don't go to the NRL as it has happened before.

 

[PaarlBok]

I am finding it very hard to comprehend how everyone has just accepted this loss as the one that "had" to happen. Qwerty51 raised it and I posted a rant that was slapped down as an anti qld stance. The hue and cry was "But he is S15" or "He is this or that". I am sorry, but it just doesn't rub with me.
The age old adage is; If this is the best that we can provide, blame the system and review immediately. If it isn't; look to the heirachy and review immediately.

We need to stop blowing smoke up these kids arses telling them how wonderful they are and saying they are S15 or whatever ( there is a massive amount of irony with one avatar here ).
Look at the young men from SA that comprehensively owned our 8. Yes they are big. And for the slings and barbs of some people casting doubts, please look at the heritage of these young Jaarpies. They are getting bigger. So are the Dutch, So are the Japanese. Funny that. It happens. Darwinism maybe? Ask your sons and daughters, are they not bigger than you? I know I have outgrown my mum and dad.
But back to our dilemma. The pandering and mollycoddling that has developed with the generation of kids coming through has dragged us back to lower than Scotland. I don't feel comfortable about this in any way, shape or form.
I have to ask why all the cries of he is this and that means anything when the end result showed a fair reaming.
Where do we start? I don't know.
Probably looking at making kids earn the spot, not tag as a "future" or a "development" project. This hasn't worked. The Jaarpie Academy system, The English Academy system have both seemed to work.

Excellent post. You need a competition to develope them from school to u20. Our lot play CCu u19, the best lot will shift to Varsity Cup and then Vodacom/S15 rugby. You do get freaks like Pollard and Thomas du Toit who jump that levels.

 

[PaarlBok]

For whats its worth, never forget that Saru have to develope more then anyone else. We have a PoC (Player of Colour)system going and they need to make sure to develope them. We are the specialists in this regard.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Thanks Boet, have no idea he was referring to. Thomas du Toit is just a freak prop, performing even better then his fellow Paarl Boys Higher Frans Malherbe or Paul Roser Kitshoff at the same age.

Its not drugs, its the Boland fresh air and a kg steak per day.

Oom Paarl, Is a kg of steak per day the Saffer equivalent to a bowl of Taro - the Samoan Steroid?

 

[PaarlBok]

Oom Paarl, Is a kg of steak per day the Saffer equivalent to a bowl of Taro - the Samoan Steroid?

Our lots veggies are chicken. Our lot dont do steriods, understand the manhood stop growing when using creatine.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

are the oz pigs fit??
a lot of walking in the first half.
Ref a bit all over the shop on scrum penalties - Saffer THP on his knees given the benefit of the doubt and we cough a penalty on their line for the same thing.
That said he'll always favour the clearly dominant pack which the Saffers were in all facets.

No two ways about it, our scrum was totally destroyed by the Saffers. This confirmed the old adage that Forwards win matches and the hairdressers just determine how much the match will be won by.

As a former forward, I can appreciate the total scrum and breakdown dominance that the Saffers obtained and it was blatantly obvious that we were going to get thrashed from early on in the game. Setting aside national support considerations, I really enjoyed watching the Saffer piggies game. Unfortunately it happened to be against us.

Trying to compete with the meat eating Saffers at set piece and break down time would have sapped any fitness from our players. Little wonder that the fatties were walking, and "lazy" or sloppy in defence. We were totally outmuscled to an extent that is seldom seen, and the Saffers took full advantage of that.

I think many of the posters on here have not given the Saffers the credit they deserve for their game they played today and the systematic way they took us apart. They strangled us good and proper, and good on them. I reckon they have a squad that is good enough to take the title, especially if they play as they did today (our time). They are most likely to be up against the Kiwis in the final, and we all know that any Saffer vs Kiwi rugby game is played at a level of intensity and passion that is at a different level to any other rugby match.

 

[Micheal]

If anyones confused as to why the Aussie side is smaller than other nations, don't blame it on steroids or accuse other teams of doping, just look no further than the u20s team the NRL is able to field:

1 Jackson Hastings (Roosters), 2 Brenko Lee (Raiders), 3 Robert Jennings (Panthers), 4 Jordan Drew (Broncos), 5 Valentine Holmes (Sharks), 6 Drew Hutchison (Dragons), 7 Ashley Taylor (Broncos), 8 Joe Ofahengaue (Broncos), 9 Jayden Berrell (Broncos), 10 Matthew Lodge (Tigers), 11 Coen Hess (Cowboys), 12 Tepai Moeroa (Eels), 13 Tevita Pangai Junior (Raiders)

Interchange
14 Tyrell Fuimaono (Eels), 15 Salesi Funaki (Tigers), 16 Jayden Nikorima (Broncos), 17 Alex Twal (Eels), 18 Jai Arrow (Broncos)

As it has been well noted, talent absolutely pours out of the cracks of rugby union's junior pathways. It's not something we can prevent in the games current form, but it does explain a significant amount of our recent performance across all levels (particularly within the forwards).

If you leave high school and you're a big unit, with decent ball skills, good aggression and ambition, where do you go? League. Thats why in Union we have characters like Rob Simmons, who's angriest when his mum won't let him watch TV until he's taken out the bins, playing at elite levels.

What Australian rugby needs is size and aggression within its forwards, and with the way the game is currently set up, we simply don't get it. Even if we do (e.g. Will Skelton), a huge amount of us throw our arms in the air and flood the internet with remarks about how such dirty play doesn't have a place in the code.

The amount of times I've seen people asset that the Tah's 'play dirty' over the last 18 months is ridiculous. They are simply the first Aussie team in a long while to play with any sort of physical commitment and passion. I hope Cheika can enforce the same culture within the Wallabies.

I digress... I honestly believe that if Adrian Thompson had both our current u20s squad, the NRL u20s squad, a few others (Angus Crichton comes to mind) and enough time to show the league boys the ins and outs of the game, not only would we be amazed by the amount of league boys that make the run on 15, but also with how much better the team performs.

I would kill for Eben Etzebeth in the Wobs. Or Retallick. Or O'Connell. Hopefully one day we breed our own.

Edit: I also think the reliance upon the private schools system plays a serious role within the pacifying of our forwards. Having gone through one myself, too often is passionate or aggressive play looked down upon or reprimanded. The focus within such schools (especially the one I went to) was on playing fair to the point of playing passive. I think this needs to change.

 

[qwerty51]

There's really nothing that can be done, the boys that these guys are coming up against have been receiving professional training for the last 2 years. We don't have the $$ for that. They are all aligned with age grade professional sides. It's even more pro in England and France, there's age grade sides at all ages from about u16 for each Aviva and Top 14 side. Our Super Rugby sides can barely afford 1 side let alone these sides.

 

[Brumby Runner]

On attack, he got some balls that were either shovelling the pressure, or created a half break that saw him without the support, he didn't play badly relatively, but he was one of many with poor games.

On D, it was quite obvious he hadn't played much there. 13 is the lynchpin in defence, has to make the right decisions, marshal the troops in alignment, cover both tiht and out wide etc. It's a technically difficult position to play, especially against sides with fairly good attacks. Rebels with Ellison compared to Rebels without Ellison and all that.

It's not a failure, but not really a success either. Wouldn't be surprised if he's benched for the game against us in favour of DP & CM in the centers.

I'd rather see DP at 10 and Tuipolotu back at 12. Both of our No 10s are small and look to be too light for this level of competition.

I the forwards, the Saffa pack looked to be 50% larger per man than the Aussies. That No 3 was immense in the scrums.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

No two ways about it, our scrum was totally destroyed by the Saffers. This confirmed the old adage that Forwards win matches and the hairdressers just determine how much the match will be won by.

As a former forward, I can appreciate the total scrum and breakdown dominance that the Saffers obtained and it was blatantly obvious that we were going to get thrashed from early on in the game. Setting aside national support considerations, I really enjoyed watching the Saffer piggies game. Unfortunately it happened to be against us.

Trying to compete with the meat eating Saffers at set piece and break down time would have sapped any fitness from our players. Little wonder that the fatties were walking, and "lazy" or sloppy in defence. We were totally outmuscled to an extent that is seldom seen, and the Saffers took full advantage of that.

I think many of the posters on here have not given the Saffers the credit they deserve for their game they played today and the systematic way they took us apart. They strangled us good and proper, and good on them. I reckon they have a squad that is good enough to take the title, especially if they play as they did today (our time). They are most likely to be up against the Kiwis in the final, and we all know that any Saffer vs Kiwi rugby game is played at a level of intensity and passion that is at a different level to any other rugby match.

I dont mean to take anything away from the Saffers.
My concern was mid to long term one based on the extent of the difference in quality.
I take your point about the "sapping of fitness" but the point in the match that caught my eye was 20 or so minutes in.
Although a former forward I readily concede I am out of my depth in what I am about to say but........i thought one advantage we might have had was the potential for our front row to get under theirs. With adequate (superior?) technique and assuming requisite fitness we might have made life a bit more difficult. Before you guys dismiss this as the musings of a quasi hairdresser from the back row I draw attention to my post re the Italy game where I lamented their ability to get under us - ie we were too high.
I know the Afrikaans are the largest europeans in the world but everyone of their pigs dwarfed ours and they were lean and hard: what does the future hold when these fellas get to s15 and Wallaby level??? if this is as big as we get the only answer is technique.

 

[kiap]

Trying to compete with the meat eating Saffers at set piece and break down time would have sapped any fitness from our players. Little wonder that the fatties were walking, and "lazy" or sloppy in defence. We were totally outmuscled to an extent that is seldom seen, and the Saffers took full advantage of that.

I think many of the posters on here have not given the Saffers the credit they deserve for their game they played today and the systematic way they took us apart. They strangled us good and proper, and good on them. I reckon they have a squad that is good enough to take the title

Correct. Our boys got outmuscled by bigger and better side. I'll predict the Saffers will win it from here. Good luck to them.

But with all due respect to OomPB, his talk about eating 1kg steaks is a beard. It's nonsense.

That photo Paarlbok posted of Thomas du Toit—a seventeen year old lad at school—almost makes these guys look like "girly men":

I can assure everyone that they had steak in South Africa in the 90s.

Like our own Test team of that era, these players were strong and fit – but still relatively wiry compared to players these days developed early in a system designed for full pro rugby.

Qwerty's right. It makes a difference.

 

[PiXeL_Ninja]

<3 Lion Lager

 

[Joe Blow]

It was tough to watch after the first 15 minutes as the Baby Boks were just bigger and stronger by such a huge margin.
Our boys looked like boys whereby the BBs were well and truly full grown and developed beasts.
Do the other U20 sides present the same way?