2015 IRB Junior Rugby World Cup - Italy
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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PiXeL_Ninja
Bill Watson (15)
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
As much as I would like to see our under 20s doing better, the main priority is the senior level of the game.
Any changes at the under 20 level must be aimed first and foremost at producing and retaining players who will be good enough to compete as full professionals.
Any changes at the under 20 level must be aimed first and foremost at producing and retaining players who will be good enough to compete as full professionals.
FrontRowFan
Herbert Moran (7)
Micheal
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
In short, I can only assume you didn't read my post.
We have no one to blame but ourselves. The NRL just happens to benefit immensely from our inaptitude.
It was pretty anti Queensland though. You picked out a bunch of players you didn't think should be there (or moreso players who shouldn't have been overlooked).
The reality of the game was that we got smashed up front and all the starting tight five are from NSW.
I don't think anyone is particularly convinced that those NSW players weren't the best options available but that is where our biggest weakness seems to lie.
As disappointing as the result against SA was, I think most astute judges on this site had identified the weaknesses in our forwards a while ago. so the result shouldn't have come as a surprise. What I think is a little knee jerk, is the number of people who seem to have lost faith. As far as I can see this was the first time the ARU had attempted to run a proper process around the whole U20's set up? We need to give it time to properly work. I don't know any of the players who get name checked on this thread but it seems to me that next year's version of the U20's will be a different proposition. For example - Francis Brown, Vunipola Fifita, Izaac Rodda all seem to have the physical attributes to match the "big boys". Throw in Lukhan LT and Ned Hanigan and you seem to have the making of a big pack if that is what is required. For me rugby development is very similar to what goes on in any profession, be it lawyers, accountants or engineers - firms know that they need to over invest in the junior ranks to cope with attrition through the development cycle. May be only 10% of the initial recruits stay the duration. You fill the gap with trained recruits from other firms or bright adaptable people from other professions who have flexibility. You just have to have the commitment and of course the resources to stay the distance.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Put the petty Maroon vs Blue nonsense behind us. When we are talking about the national interest, that sort of tiny minded self interest is best left to Mungoland who need to create interstate boganisical rivalry because they are internationally bankrupt.
The Waratahs are playing the Reds this weekend to end the Festival ofHate Pity. For Rugby, it ends there.
While I think that the Selectors may have made some errors in the team they chose to represent us at the Jnr RWC, where are the dreadnaughts in Australian Rugby that would have countered the Saffer piggies? They aren't playing Colts or Grade in Sydney Premier Rugby.
Lukhan Longname-Tui is a monster but he is raw and with investment will potentially develop into the missing Skelton brother that the Wobs need in the engine room.
The Canberra hooker couldn't throw a pill to a lineout, but the "chosen one" from NSW seemed to struggle to hit a cow in the arse with a coal shovel. Ed Craig can throw a lineout like Phil "The Power" Taylor hits triple 20's in World Championship Darts. If NSW's favourite son, Ed Craig had played against the Saffers he would have been Boer Kak like the rest of our piggies.
The cheating runt yappy halfbacks from Queensland didn't deserve their free trip to Italy? it is probably good for Mitchell Short's scrapbook that he wasn't chosen because his CV would have been stamped "DO NOT SELECT" if he had been behind our pack no matter how skilled he may be. Jonah Placid can't pass - Well he did and it didn't help us. Tepai Moeroa is playing NRL. He couldn't pass either and his wingers would die of frostbite. Cameron Orr and Matt Sandell were bitched at scrum time? Where are the better and more technically competent pot plants?
Face it folks, the Saffers totally outplayed us. If the people's choices were selected, the scoreline would have been no different. We were totally munted by a better team who thoroughly deserved their victory, and there are no players left in Australia that would have made a difference. GIVE THE SAFFERS CREDIT.
The Waratahs are playing the Reds this weekend to end the Festival of
While I think that the Selectors may have made some errors in the team they chose to represent us at the Jnr RWC, where are the dreadnaughts in Australian Rugby that would have countered the Saffer piggies? They aren't playing Colts or Grade in Sydney Premier Rugby.
Lukhan Longname-Tui is a monster but he is raw and with investment will potentially develop into the missing Skelton brother that the Wobs need in the engine room.
The Canberra hooker couldn't throw a pill to a lineout, but the "chosen one" from NSW seemed to struggle to hit a cow in the arse with a coal shovel. Ed Craig can throw a lineout like Phil "The Power" Taylor hits triple 20's in World Championship Darts. If NSW's favourite son, Ed Craig had played against the Saffers he would have been Boer Kak like the rest of our piggies.
The cheating runt yappy halfbacks from Queensland didn't deserve their free trip to Italy? it is probably good for Mitchell Short's scrapbook that he wasn't chosen because his CV would have been stamped "DO NOT SELECT" if he had been behind our pack no matter how skilled he may be. Jonah Placid can't pass - Well he did and it didn't help us. Tepai Moeroa is playing NRL. He couldn't pass either and his wingers would die of frostbite. Cameron Orr and Matt Sandell were bitched at scrum time? Where are the better and more technically competent pot plants?
Face it folks, the Saffers totally outplayed us. If the people's choices were selected, the scoreline would have been no different. We were totally munted by a better team who thoroughly deserved their victory, and there are no players left in Australia that would have made a difference. GIVE THE SAFFERS CREDIT.
The loss to SA was not a surprise (except the score) to those who watched both teams play. SA has an exceptional squad with many players of S15 standard and size. The game was an uneven contest as it would be between 1st grade and S15 teams. Tight 5 was mostly inexpierenced and you can not blame anyone with S15 experience for what happened. I think those boys played well (Korczyk, Gunn). I wish we had many more of such standard. I dont want to get into any blame game again but no one on this forum made any comments on our backs ball handling and defensive efforts. However I would never doubt a passion and commitment of our lads who gave everything on the day.
There are 2 more games to be played. Lets stay positive and hope for a strong come back.
I am convinced that in the future the return of NRC will foster the development of more competitive National site.
There are 2 more games to be played. Lets stay positive and hope for a strong come back.
I am convinced that in the future the return of NRC will foster the development of more competitive National site.
Rugger Mate
Allen Oxlade (6)
Totally agree. saffers have a great team. It is no different to a schoolboy team running into a team of more well delevoped boys.That happens, give these under 20 team boys a few more years to mature size wise in the forwards and they will be very competitive with there opposites from South Africa . People shouldn't get all tied up over a lose. You play any sport long enough and you will always have a defeat that you never forget, it is how you come back from it that will be the measure.
FrontRowFan
Herbert Moran (7)
Agreed.
Also agree with earlier posts that the backs didn't do much better than the piggies. Why do you think there were so many scrums - lost ball in the backs.
Watching that game was a bit like watching an u18 touch footy team playing a Shute shield 1st grade team. We seemed that much outclassed to me. In both backs and forwards. The only area we won some ball was at lineout time, but even that didn't go so well often.
Just totally outclassed in almost every facet of play, and I don't think the stock on the paddock, or the coaching staff, are to blame. They obviously all did their best. Let's not rub dirt into a wound that would already be feeling pretty raw for the boys.
I actually think that if we'd managed to convert some early points opportunities (Kellaway's near try, or one of the held up over the line instances), and if the ref had made a couple of different decisions (some of the penalties against Aust. were plucked out of thin air, if you ask me), and if 1 or 2 of those soft tries were held out, the end score would have been much closer.
But what of next year? What can / should we do differently? Is it something that can be addressed with different selections from the available players? Is it something that could benefit from a different coaching team? Probably not, on both counts.
Not sure what the answer is, but we need to think of something if we are to be competitive in this age group in future years.
Perhaps discussion on this thread could now turn to some constructive talk about next steps, rather Han just saying 'I told you so'.
To all the experts out there, here's the challenge: what can we do differently between now and June 2016 when the boys arrive in England for the next u20 game v St Africa, or England, to generate a different result?
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Nothing, the ARU doesn't have the money to fund it.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Seriously rugby was pretty amateur in the 90s in SA. But you are right, SA come a long way since then in conditioning. Myself living in Stellenbosch, this is where these u20 players prepared for the tournament.Correct. Our boys got outmuscled by bigger and better side. I'll predict the Saffers will win it from here. Good luck to them.
But with all due respect to OomPB, his talk about eating 1kg steaks is a beard. It's nonsense.
That photo Paarlbok posted of Thomas du Toit—a seventeen year old lad at school—almost makes these guys look like "girly men":
I can assure everyone that they had steak in South Africa in the 90s.
Like our own Test team of that era, these players were strong and fit – but still relatively wiry compared to players these days developed early in a system designed for full pro rugby.
Qwerty's right. It makes a difference.
http://www.sastraining.co.za/#
My laaitie PRG team that toured Holland also prepared there and trust me they kakked.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
On a sidenote, JD Schickerlingh who played lock for the SA team last year and broke his neck in the u21 CC, is back running at WP practises. He would have been one of the SA star players if the unfortunate injury did not happened.
http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/wp-u20-lock-breaks-neck
http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/wp-u20-lock-breaks-neck
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Good question @FrontRow Fan but that is for the 2016 World Rugby U20 Championship Thread. Apart from trying to bring ARG and SAF into the Oceania Championships there is very little that we can procedurally do to change things from the process that was followed this year.
Do we have the cattle? Who are the world class Bulldozers, Magicians, cheating yappy Jack Russell runts, Whippets, Gazelles, Pot Plants, Superboots from the Class of 2014?
Who is SuperCoach? What about the S&C Guru?
Not all that much wrong with the process to select and prepare the team. There may be opportunities for the Coaches to do things differently when they have the team at their disposal (both State level and National level), or to do S&C differently. We are stuck with the cattle that were at National Schoolboys Championships in 2014 along with some late developing bolters, and the talented kids who left school as 17 year olds in 2013. Taniela Tupou (AKA Tongan Thor) may be available but in many respects that is doing precisely the same as what many elite Private Schools are accused of doing in their quest to allegedly buy a GPS/AAGPS premiership.
Newbie
Bill McLean (32)
It's been another long hiatus from G&GR for me, nevertheless it's great to return and see the heated debate the JBok v. JWallaby game has generated!
First and foremost, I totally agree with the sentiments that the JBoks were just plain and simply, “too big-too strong”. They totally outmuscled Australia, especially in the forwards. For mine certain Oz lads will be doing some soul searching over the next couple of days (and if they have the mental fortitude they will be better off for the experience). Needless to say, let’s give credit where credit is due – kudos to the JBoks!
It was interesting to read the multitude of “causal-attribution” opinions and/or theories. For what it’s worth I share some the views expressed by @Brian Westlake, especially with respect to a need for the 'higher authorities' of our game to review the current pathway system. To this you can add @Paarl Boks poignant comments about Australia needing to have a junior competition similar to that which presently exists in SA (and for that matter Europe - i.e. the U/20 Six Nations). An annual national championship for several days just doesn't seem to be cutting it (however the Junior Oceania Championship has been a step in the right direction).
I also agree with @Michael comments regarding the NRL comparison. What he states does, in my humble opinion, "hold water."
With respect to why the JBoks are so &^%$# huge, please indulge me while I throw in some "light hearted - tongue in cheek" theories of my own! Some have suggested "steroids” (heaven forbid), and others (winking @Paarl Bok) have suggested that it all has to do with eating "1kg of steak" per/day perhaps." Given the size of some of these lads is it safe to suggest that some actually hunt it themselves using their bare hands?
Here is my theory. If one has ever been to the islands (i.e. Samoa or Tonga) one should have observed that the lads there are not quite as big as their counterparts raised in Australia or NZ. Most put it down to 'better nourishment', and most reputable scientists would probably agree! However my empirical research (lmao) suggests that the main contributing factor is the "steroids" KFC pump into their “four-week-womb-to-tomb” chickens which happens to be a favourite food of Polynesians living in OZ – one need only go to a Polynesian function or two to figure that one out! The taro only adds to the multiplier effect!
So my question is this to all those Saffers in this forum? “What do you feed your %$#@& cows in South Afrika?” What-ever it is, ‘share the love boys!'
First and foremost, I totally agree with the sentiments that the JBoks were just plain and simply, “too big-too strong”. They totally outmuscled Australia, especially in the forwards. For mine certain Oz lads will be doing some soul searching over the next couple of days (and if they have the mental fortitude they will be better off for the experience). Needless to say, let’s give credit where credit is due – kudos to the JBoks!
It was interesting to read the multitude of “causal-attribution” opinions and/or theories. For what it’s worth I share some the views expressed by @Brian Westlake, especially with respect to a need for the 'higher authorities' of our game to review the current pathway system. To this you can add @Paarl Boks poignant comments about Australia needing to have a junior competition similar to that which presently exists in SA (and for that matter Europe - i.e. the U/20 Six Nations). An annual national championship for several days just doesn't seem to be cutting it (however the Junior Oceania Championship has been a step in the right direction).
I also agree with @Michael comments regarding the NRL comparison. What he states does, in my humble opinion, "hold water."
With respect to why the JBoks are so &^%$# huge, please indulge me while I throw in some "light hearted - tongue in cheek" theories of my own! Some have suggested "steroids” (heaven forbid), and others (winking @Paarl Bok) have suggested that it all has to do with eating "1kg of steak" per/day perhaps." Given the size of some of these lads is it safe to suggest that some actually hunt it themselves using their bare hands?
Here is my theory. If one has ever been to the islands (i.e. Samoa or Tonga) one should have observed that the lads there are not quite as big as their counterparts raised in Australia or NZ. Most put it down to 'better nourishment', and most reputable scientists would probably agree! However my empirical research (lmao) suggests that the main contributing factor is the "steroids" KFC pump into their “four-week-womb-to-tomb” chickens which happens to be a favourite food of Polynesians living in OZ – one need only go to a Polynesian function or two to figure that one out! The taro only adds to the multiplier effect!
So my question is this to all those Saffers in this forum? “What do you feed your %$#@& cows in South Afrika?” What-ever it is, ‘share the love boys!'
Ulrich
Nev Cottrell (35)
Read some and stopped.
Some Baby Boks may very well be taking supplements. So too for the Australian counterparts however.
If you disagree you are not considering the circumstances.
In SA, rugby is a huge sport for almost ALL white people (I.O.W) the same segment of Saffers you have come across on these forums.
We are descendants of the dutch who are on average the largest/tallest nation on this planet.
We happen to have farm schools and rugby schools where our boys pit it out against one another in a rugby game. We eat biltong and chicken is our vegetable. Our top school games are broadcasted on national television every weekend.
We grow up with rifles in our hands. We get hidings from our parents like you wouldn't believe but we respect them for it and we carry it on to the next generation. Most of us are God-fearing and our standards only reflect what His will should be.
Hard on the field and friends afterwards. Like two boys brawling and becoming friends thereafter. We thrive off that on the rugby field. Foreign nations may not understand it but the tougher you are in SA the friendlier you are likely to be.
For AUS it's all about competition. Bring back friendship into the game of rugby and you'll see AUS rugby standards escalating.
Very few SA rugby players make it into the news for punching people before leaving on a plane and very few make headlines for misbehaviour. So get your facts straight. We are a solid AFRIKAANS/BOER nation. Our government may not reflect that, but it's unfair to label us as cheaters - which you effectively do when you label our boys as druggies. Look at your own and how they turn out.
JOC (James O'Connor)
KB (Kurtley Beale)
QC (Quade Cooper)
Whilst the rest of your mob have been afraid to stand against their bad behaviour.
Maybe our folks take steroids, but I bet if that's the case so do your blokes and everyone else. We're one of the largest player exporters in the world for rugby because our systems are great.
We learn to scrum proper from ST2 or Grade 4. No mickey scrums, proper scrums. Many of our schools have multiple teams. In my primary school (Bellville Noord - Bellville North) we had U/13 A, B and C teams. In my High School we had (Bellville Hoër - Bellville High)
A, B, C and D teams from grades 8 to 12.
Eben Etzebeth was a wing for the B team at Tygergerg. Andries Bekkers' father spotted him and told him he should become a lock forward. He became a Springbok.
That is the nature of our depth. No less than NZ but our structures lack in comparison to theirs.
That coupled with our genetics makes us better. Not steroids.
"Wanneer Pa se "Die gras moet gesny word" dan se jy, "Ja, PA!" en jy doen dit met trots!
Translated: When dad says "The lawn needs to be mowed you say "Yes DAD!" and you do it with honour!
Some Baby Boks may very well be taking supplements. So too for the Australian counterparts however.
If you disagree you are not considering the circumstances.
In SA, rugby is a huge sport for almost ALL white people (I.O.W) the same segment of Saffers you have come across on these forums.
We are descendants of the dutch who are on average the largest/tallest nation on this planet.
We happen to have farm schools and rugby schools where our boys pit it out against one another in a rugby game. We eat biltong and chicken is our vegetable. Our top school games are broadcasted on national television every weekend.
We grow up with rifles in our hands. We get hidings from our parents like you wouldn't believe but we respect them for it and we carry it on to the next generation. Most of us are God-fearing and our standards only reflect what His will should be.
Hard on the field and friends afterwards. Like two boys brawling and becoming friends thereafter. We thrive off that on the rugby field. Foreign nations may not understand it but the tougher you are in SA the friendlier you are likely to be.
For AUS it's all about competition. Bring back friendship into the game of rugby and you'll see AUS rugby standards escalating.
Very few SA rugby players make it into the news for punching people before leaving on a plane and very few make headlines for misbehaviour. So get your facts straight. We are a solid AFRIKAANS/BOER nation. Our government may not reflect that, but it's unfair to label us as cheaters - which you effectively do when you label our boys as druggies. Look at your own and how they turn out.
JOC (James O'Connor)
KB (Kurtley Beale)
QC (Quade Cooper)
Whilst the rest of your mob have been afraid to stand against their bad behaviour.
Maybe our folks take steroids, but I bet if that's the case so do your blokes and everyone else. We're one of the largest player exporters in the world for rugby because our systems are great.
We learn to scrum proper from ST2 or Grade 4. No mickey scrums, proper scrums. Many of our schools have multiple teams. In my primary school (Bellville Noord - Bellville North) we had U/13 A, B and C teams. In my High School we had (Bellville Hoër - Bellville High)
A, B, C and D teams from grades 8 to 12.
Eben Etzebeth was a wing for the B team at Tygergerg. Andries Bekkers' father spotted him and told him he should become a lock forward. He became a Springbok.
That is the nature of our depth. No less than NZ but our structures lack in comparison to theirs.
That coupled with our genetics makes us better. Not steroids.
"Wanneer Pa se "Die gras moet gesny word" dan se jy, "Ja, PA!" en jy doen dit met trots!
Translated: When dad says "The lawn needs to be mowed you say "Yes DAD!" and you do it with honour!
FrontRowFan
Herbert Moran (7)
Do you mean the "2016 World Rugby U20 Championship Thread"?! Is there one yet?
B
Bobby Sands
Guest
Good post.
However, we barely play rugby in Australia. Except for a few exclusive schools in Sydney and Brisbane primarily. It is the least played of any of the major sports in this country by quite a way.
Yet, we still beat you quite often.
You had a good win in the U20s. Congrats. However I suggest you temper your speech a little, as just like the scrums, you are beginning to Boer in.
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