2012 Rugby Championship Round 4 Game 2 Australia vs Argentina - 15 Sep

[qwerty51]

I always thought its wrong...he is mister consistent and was more than serviceable in the Wales test. Probably had better super form than his inside back compatriots as well

What did he do in the Wales test besides kick one goal?

 

[Torn Hammy]

One of the few highlights of saturday was the direct running 12 who actually crosses the gain line. Why people want to return to the ball-playing-12 bullshit that we had for most of last decade (a period in which we won nothing at all) is beyond me. The ABs don't have a ball player at 12 and neither do the Boks. All the 12 needs to do is get over the line with the ball and tackle. We have enough people capable of generally useless fancy shit.

-

Are you saying that SBW isn't a ball playing 12?

I think coaches would like a mixture of ball playing and hard running but this is a rare skill set.

But SBW is the blueprint for the modern 12.

 

[Bowside]

Nonu was the first choice AB 12 for a long time and on successful teams prior to him developing him these new passing skills you refer to. Is it good that he has improved in that area? Sure. Is there any evidence that we should select a ball-passer in place of someone that can get across the line? Hardly.

I'd actually put O'Connor at 13 since he has a decent in-and-away and he likes running around in some space.

Nonu was snubbed from the 07 WC squad because he was not a good enough distributor. He is an infinitely better player than he was earlier in his career.

The bolded section of your comment is the bit I have a problem with though. Who says that just because a player is a ball passer they can not also make regularly metres going forward. It's called being a complete player. Nonu is a complete player, so is Sonny-Bill. McCabe is not a complete player, not at 12.

I dont necessarily think the wallabies should emulate everything the All Blacks do, but there are some basics lessons that we can learn from them, and having a distributor at 12 is definitely one of them.

 

[Brumbieman]

Absolute dribble

Cooper was the most exciting thing in world rugby last year. The bloke has freakish skills and an amzing ability to put runners through holes and create overlaps..as well as amazing foot work, acceleration and pace.

Deans does not select backlines to compliment his talents.

Deans does not design game plans to exploit his abilities.

This is poor coaching.

If Deans wants to play 10 man rugby and bang it up the 12 channel, he should pick Barnes at 10 and kick it all day and get McCabe trucking it up. Cooper and McCabe just don't seem to gel

Cooper also got absolutely terrible service from Phipps....swivel passes from the ruck were common because Phipps had no idea where Cooper was or which way the play was going. When he did know, the passes were behind him, over his head, at his feet. Cooper had one eye on rushing into halfback because Phipps was a phase behind the game.

He had a kick charged down? I have seen the great Dan Carter have a kick or two charged down.

He threw a bad pass ?..... thank christ they were in an attacking mindset to counter. The last 3 tests have been worse than watching womens lawn bowls

It wasn't his finest game...but he hasn't played much with Phipps and he hasn't played with McCabe for 12 months.

He created space for Samo to cross the line in the first half. He put Sharpe into space to cross the line in the first half. He put Mccabe through a hole to score and start the comeback.

If a few of his backline colleagues were up to speed with where the holes were and where they should be running instead of standing flat with their hands on their todgers watching Cooper, he would have carved the Argies up and we would have put 50 on them. The holes were everywhere. The runners weren't. Playmakers can't do a lot without outside backs in motion running into holes and providing decoys.

The Australian backline is pretty disappointing at the moment. Cooper is the flint for sparking the fire

Fucking THIS! So much THIS that I cant really convey just how spot on this is.


Deans HAS to go immediately, we have the Lions here next year and we're going to get wiped like a dirty arse if he's still in charge.

 

[DPK]

Hey, I am just throwing ideas put there

Why on earth would you do that?

We have enough trouble with injury disruption effecting our line up, why go chopping and changing.

Let the team build some consistency for christ's sake.

 

[TOCC]

This seems to be a pretty common thing in international rugby now.

The defensive team often commits less in the lineout so they have more defenders in the backline and sometimes the attacking team will want a crash baller in the midfield (Timani has been used in this position a lot).

Using all the forwards in the lineout seems more of a tactic for a rolling maul than to create one on one situations in the backline.

Scrums seem to be the main time for set moves in the backline now.

If teams are reguarly stacking the defensive backline with extra forwards when playing the Wallabies, why arent the Wallabies using the driving maul...

The attacking team dictates the numbers in the line-out, if the opposition chooses not to match then that is a glaring weakness which needs to start to be exposed, subsequently ensuring that the opposition wont flood the back line.

 

[Brumbieman]

Until Palu is fit, I think starting Samo and finishing with Higgers should continue.

We've now been getting impact across the 80 minutes from the number 8 position. I think this is crucial to the overall physicality and effectiveness of our forward pack. Whilst we could start Higgers at 6, I think he is a better option at 8 than Dave Dennis. If we start Higgers at 6 and move him to 8 when Samo comes off, we will lose that fresh player grunt that he's been providing at number 8 in the second half.

Dave Dennis has been improving every test at 6.

Palu has never been fit, nor has he every performed against SH opponents.


He isn't the answer, and never will be. If we're looking for a Kefu lookalike, Vaea is our man. He actually breaks tackles, makes metres, and has great hands.

 

[Paradox]

Not sure why people are calling for McCabe to be replaced. I felt that Cooper got better front foot ball when he decided to pass to a charging McCabe. The Ws didn't use McCabe a lot in the first half to get over the ad line. This may have been deliberate. Perhaps the idea was to use McCabe against a tiring Argie midfield.

 

[H...]

Nonu was snubbed from the 07 WC squad because he was not a good enough distributor. He is an infinitely better player than he was earlier in his career.

The bolded section of your comment is the bit I have a problem with though. Who says that just because a player is a ball passer they can not also make regularly metres going forward. It's called being a complete player. Nonu is a complete player, so is Sonny-Bill. McCabe is not a complete player, not at 12.

I dont necessarily think the wallabies should emulate everything the All Blacks do, but there are some basics lessons that we can learn from them, and having a distributor at 12 is definitely one of them.

Nonu a "distributor". Fucking hell

I tell you what - find me a distributor that can get the ball across the gain line like nonu can, and I'll embrace this distributor concept for good.

 

[Brumbieman]

Can't agree with the idea that Mike Harris should be Wallaby 10. At the moment the pecking order is

1. Cooper
2. Lealiifano (his precise position is debateable as he is injured anyway)
3. Beale
4. George Smith
5. Beiber
6. Barnes
7. Harris

The guy is a decent enough Super player, but has shown no evidence he is up to being a test 10.
.

 

[H...]

-

Are you saying that SBW isn't a ball playing 12?

I think coaches would like a mixture of ball playing and hard running but this is a rare skill set.

But SBW is the blueprint for the modern 12.

SBW is an outlier, unless you can point to the production line we've got pumping them out.

I don't have a problem with the 12 having skills. I'd prefer it. But in this country we have spent the last decade playing small ~90kg boys with frosted tips at 12 and they have run across the paddock for their entire careers.

We don't seem to have the perfect 12 (they are probably playing league) so being forced to choose, I would select a hard, direct running guy like Nathan Grey or Pat McCabe over the "got all the skills but can't get across the advantage line" Giteau type player.

 

[Bowside]

We produced the greatest 12 of all time, and he was 93kg dripping wet......

 

[H...]

We produced the greatest 12 of all time, and he was 93kg dripping wet..

And he had no problem getting the ball across the advantage line running straight.

If you can find a "ball player" that can get the ball across the advantage line like he could, then sign me the fuck up.

But the last 10 years have seen us try this "ball player" stuff with guys that either ran across the pitch, or were shut down by the first tackler and usually behind the friggen gain laine.

 

[TOCC]

We produced the greatest 12 of all time, and he was 93kg dripping wet..

comparatively he would have been in the top weight class of his time though..

Im sure if someone examined the size development in backs over the past 15 years we would see that 80kg would have been an acceptable weight in the early 80's, that moved up to 90kg at the advent of professionalism and has since increased to 100kg.

 

[H...]

comparatively he would have been in the top weight class of his time though..

Im sure if someone examined the size development in backs over the past 15 years we would see that 80kg would have been an acceptable weight in the early 80's, that moved up to 90kg at the advent of professionalism and has since increased to 100kg.

According to wiki, Nonu is 106, Jamie Roberts 110, Steyn 110, JDV 103, SBW 108.

Giteau 85, Barnes 87, JOC (James O'Connor) 88.

Yet I seem to be one of few that thinks there's a problem with this equation.

 

[qwerty51]

Roberts and Steyn 110 kgs

 

[H...]

Roberts and Steyn 110 kgs

okay. subtract 5 from them, add 5 to our lot, and they're still >10kg heavier.

 

[Braveheart81]

If teams are reguarly stacking the defensive backline with extra forwards when playing the Wallabies, why arent the Wallabies using the driving maul.

The attacking team dictates the numbers in the line-out, if the opposition chooses not to match then that is a glaring weakness which needs to start to be exposed, subsequently ensuring that the opposition wont flood the back line.

It's not just against the Wallabies. It's a pretty common thing.

It's not that much harder to defend a rolling maul one forward short and that forward can always run back to join the forwards if required. The extra forward in the backline allows you to mark everyone one on one when the attacking team has their fullback in the line and you've still got yours hanging back.

Palu has never been fit, nor has he every performed against SH opponents.


He isn't the answer, and never will be. If we're looking for a Kefu lookalike, Vaea is our man. He actually breaks tackles, makes metres, and has great hands.

Vaea needs to do a lot more in Super Rugby before he becomes a likely candidate for the Wallabies at number 8. I doubt even with a massive first half of the season he'll be in contention to play against the Lions.

 

[qwerty51]

He's not even a first choice starter for his province...

 

[Bowside]

comparatively he would have been in the top weight class of his time though..

Im sure if someone examined the size development in backs over the past 15 years we would see that 80kg would have been an acceptable weight in the early 80's, that moved up to 90kg at the advent of professionalism and has since increased to 100kg.

Players were lighter no doubt, but even 10-12 years ago, our backline still had guys like Burke, Mortlock, Latham, Sailor etc. who were all easily 100+ kg.

And he had no problem getting the ball across the advantage line running straight.

If you can find a "ball player" that can get the ball across the advantage line like he could, then sign me the fuck up.

But the last 10 years have seen us try this "ball player" stuff with guys that either ran across the pitch, or were shut down by the first tackler and usually behind the friggen gain laine.

McCabe is listed as 92kg at 6'1"; O'Connor is 88 at 5'11". Thats not a big difference in go forward when you take into account height.

You assume that O'Connor wont make the metres going forward that McCabe makes. He might not make as many, but I reckon he would get close, and he would bring a whole range of other skills to the position that might mean the blokes either side of him make more metres as well.

Heck even barnes was making metres crashing it up at 12 against the boks.

Weight is somewhat important, but so is pace, the lines the player runs and body height.

okay. subtract 5 from them, add 5 to our lot, and they're still >10kg heavier.

We simply don't have any inside centres who are ~105kg

The biggest guy we have after McCabe is Harris......