2012 Rugby Championship Round 4 Game 2 Australia vs Argentina - 15 Sep

[Inside Shoulder]

I'm with Scotty, I wan't more offloads, especially from the forwards. They create doubt and confusion in the defence and give the backs some space to work through. Have a look how the AB's scored their first try last night. Without their offloading ability they would have possibly drawn with the Bokke.

I also like the fact that our forward pack have taken the ribbon from two of the most fancied forward packs in the world these last two weeks without the all conquering hero slayers (Palu, Horwill, Pocock). If our backs can find some combination and our forwards keep our nose to the grindstone we may actually surprise a few teams this year.

Having said that, I fully expect the forwards to not turn up to one of the next two games and undo all their good work. One hallmark of RD's tenure has been how consistently inconsistent we are.

I actually think the last thing we want/need right now is the forwards being given permission to pass the ball in close contact situations. The reason the AB's not only get away with it but make it a virtue is that their fundamentals are so superior: they can pass and put the ball in front of the man they are passing too.
If you encourage our pigs to pass what you will see is more transferring of pressure with the ball, marginal passes made in contact and/or the avoidance of contact in the pigs.
Since you have to win the forward confrontation you may as well face up to it and stage it where your own forwards can provide assistance in quick recycling and not, as we did on one occasion last night, setting up the pod 15m from the breakdown.
Presumably this was our idea of how to play the Pumas wide.

 

[Scotty]

s15 is a different world - this is a test match thread

Is it really? Thanks for letting me know.

And could you also possibly inform me as to what competition we use to base the majority of our test match selections on?

 

[Waylon]

His arrogance is working well for him: dropped ball from nothing more than an arrogant conviction that he doesn't need to do the basics because the laws of physics dont apply to him; blaming everyone else for his own shortcomings; charge downs and forward passes.
I agree that the wallabies would be much better if everyone in the "team" took this approach.

Absolute dribble

Cooper was the most exciting thing in world rugby last year. The bloke has freakish skills and an amzing ability to put runners through holes and create overlaps......as well as amazing foot work, acceleration and pace.

Deans does not select backlines to compliment his talents.

Deans does not design game plans to exploit his abilities.

This is poor coaching.

If Deans wants to play 10 man rugby and bang it up the 12 channel, he should pick Barnes at 10 and kick it all day and get McCabe trucking it up. Cooper and McCabe just don't seem to gel

Cooper also got absolutely terrible service from Phipps........swivel passes from the ruck were common because Phipps had no idea where Cooper was or which way the play was going. When he did know, the passes were behind him, over his head, at his feet. Cooper had one eye on rushing into halfback because Phipps was a phase behind the game.

He had a kick charged down? I have seen the great Dan Carter have a kick or two charged down.

He threw a bad pass ?............... thank christ they were in an attacking mindset to counter. The last 3 tests have been worse than watching womens lawn bowls

It wasn't his finest game.........but he hasn't played much with Phipps and he hasn't played with McCabe for 12 months.

He created space for Samo to cross the line in the first half. He put Sharpe into space to cross the line in the first half. He put Mccabe through a hole to score and start the comeback.

If a few of his backline colleagues were up to speed with where the holes were and where they should be running instead of standing flat with their hands on their todgers watching Cooper, he would have carved the Argies up and we would have put 50 on them. The holes were everywhere. The runners weren't. Playmakers can't do a lot without outside backs in motion running into holes and providing decoys.

The Australian backline is pretty disappointing at the moment. Cooper is the flint for sparking the fire

 

[Mr Doug]

As I said, for Argentina, it was good enough.
The Bokke and the Pumas ran the ABs pretty hard without a complex plan, and elements were similar to what we did last night - aggressive at the breakdown, pretty quick pick and go, good defence and so on.
But I agree, we will need to be much more accurate, and take our chances if and when they come against the Bokke, and the ABs when next we meet them. In particular against the ABs we need a far better kicking execution - their counter is too deadly.
We saw from the AB - Bokke game that you have to get the points on offer.

"Soap and water" Cyclopath! You'd better erase these thoughts from your brain, because Los Pumas aren't far off beating any other rugby test team they meet! A draw with the Boks and going down by 2 tries to 1 against the All Blacks gives testament to my comment!

 

[H...]

Is it really? Thanks for letting me know.

And could you also possibly inform me as to what competition we use to base the majority of our test match selections on?

after a player has played a number of tests, you can actually judge them on their test match form.

 

[cyclopath]

"Soap and water" Cyclopath! You'd better erase these thoughts from your brain, because Los Pumas aren't far off beating any other rugby test team they meet! A draw with the Boks and going down by 2 tries to 1 against the All Blacks gives testament to my comment!

That's not the point. I'm not diminishing Argentina as an opponent, or what they have accomplished. They have a relatively simple, but well executed plan, and have indeed gone close.
We'll need to do a bit more against the ABs or Bokke, however, if we have designs on beating them. They (especially the ABs) have a few more options at their disposal.

 

[Waylon]

I actually think the last thing we want/need right now is the forwards being given permission to pass the ball in close contact situations.

It is more sensible to tuck it under their wing and dive head first at the feet of the defence behind the advantage line. This tactic has been the platform for 10 years of sub par wallaby performances and a decade of mediocrity.

If they could hit the line, get across the line and unload to runners, they might be able to emulate the allblacks.

For 10 years we have watched unskilled, athletically inferior Australian forwards flopping and the entire forward pack piling into the ruck in a desperate attempt to recycle the ball before it is stolen or the opposition blows over the ruck. It hasn't worked for the last 10 years.

The allblacks seem to get across the advantage line, and either recycle quickly or offload it. The ball is shifted from the contact zone quickly and they seem to do it by committing very few players to the breakdown which means they always seem to have forward runners hitting the ball at speed on the next phase or a pod of forwards wider to attack the opposition backline. The cleanout is so ferocious it makes heir continuity seem effortless and they build pressure by constantly keeping the opposition going backwards.........when they are on song. The bokke were very physical yesterday at the tackle contest and they struggled to get their game going

The wallaby set, flop, slow recycle, hit a flat footed runner to flop, recycle slowly..............is ineffective and won't result in winning rugby against the best teams

 

[Scotty]

after a player has played a number of tests, you can actually judge them on their test match form.

So based on his experience in the position at test level, and his current test match form as an outside back, you would prefer Beale at 10?

 

[Scotty]

The reality is that there is no one else: he (and Beale) are the result of the cult of the league 5/8 in junior union. We should be looking for the kids who can control the game and give opportunities to the other 14 - it results in 14 times as many ways to score points - but we are always seduced by the flashy player.

Cooper is one of the best at this that we have had for a long time. You must be watching a different game to me if you think otherwise.

 

[H...]

So based on his experience in the position at test level, and his current test match form as an outside back, you would prefer Beale at 10?

what?

 

[Ruggo]

I would like to see our forwards consistantly do the basics right to the point it becomes habit before we start bring new elements into their game.

As for our backs maybe we are missing some balance. When we have Cooper, Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) fit and firing, the defensive centres are an asset and it all balances out. What I did like was the enterprise shown by Barnes at fullback to enter the line at pace and recieve the ball. I wouldn't say it is a traditional skill of his and in an unfamiliar position and it could be polished up but none the less full credit for showing the enterprise to do so. I think it is great that he is looking to evolve and diversify his game.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Is it really? Thanks for letting me know.

And could you also possibly inform me as to what competition we use to base the majority of our test match selections on?

doesn't mean they're up to it - history is littered with star s 12 players who never even got picked: but our stocks were higher then

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Absolute dribble

Cooper was the most exciting thing in world rugby last year. The bloke has freakish skills and an amzing ability to put runners through holes and create overlaps..as well as amazing foot work, acceleration and pace.

Deans does not select backlines to compliment his talents.

Deans does not design game plans to exploit his abilities.

This is poor coaching.

As a matter of interest who would you pick so that this supposed genius could realise his talent?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It is more sensible to tuck it under their wing and dive head first at the feet of the defence behind the advantage line. This tactic has been the platform for 10 years of sub par wallaby performances and a decade of mediocrity.

You have to ask why it is that everything we do is done behind the gain line: in my view the simple answer to that question is that we do not begin every test with the object of making sure we hit the gain line every time we have the ball.
We are far too interested in what happens after we establish the beach head than we are in establishing the beach head.
As a result most of our game is lateral because until you bend your opponents they're happy to escort you across the field on the end of long cut out passes.
No one ever scored a try by running at the touch line.

 

[Jnor]

IS you might want to pick which posts to respond to and how much time to devote to them, I can only imagine it's not good for your health.

 

[Dam0]

For 10 years we have watched unskilled, athletically inferior Australian forwards flopping and the entire forward pack piling into the ruck in a desperate attempt to recycle the ball before it is stolen or the opposition blows over the ruck. It hasn't worked for the last 10 years.

The allblacks seem to get across the advantage line, and either recycle quickly or offload it. The ball is shifted from the contact zone quickly and they seem to do it by committing very few players to the breakdown which means they always seem to have forward runners hitting the ball at speed on the next phase or a pod of forwards wider to attack the opposition backline. The cleanout is so ferocious it makes heir continuity seem effortless and they build pressure by constantly keeping the opposition going backwards...when they are on song. The bokke were very physical yesterday at the tackle contest and they struggled to get their game going

The wallaby set, flop, slow recycle, hit a flat footed runner to flop, recycle slowly......is ineffective and won't result in winning rugby against the best teams

I think this is exactly right. If you remember earlier in the year Graham Henry made this exact point about the English forwards. He said that they focus only on going to the ball and ensuring it is won rather that powering through and past to get quick ball.

He was poo-pooed by all and sundry over there (and no doubt here too) but he was exactly right. The Saffers and even the Argies are good at it too, but it is the New Zealand practice of trying to go as far past the ball as possible that provides the edge to our game. Sometimes they go too far and get penalised like in Bled 1, but in general it is very effective.

 

[TOCC]

Quade is the best 10 we currently have, the current backline aren't playing to his abilities, the holes are out there but the players arent hitting them..

Lelifano would have earned a shot if he didn't get injured.. Barnes has had a shot and our backs only scored 4 tries in 6 test matches.. Beale doesnt have the mental mindset to be playing test rugby at the moment..

 

[Paradox]

Cooper should stay. He's looking better with each week: sure he was trying to push the play last night but he seemed much more active than previous games. Sure, he had more space against Argentina than NZ/SA but it's a question of progression.

I agree we should stick with him for the moment but gee he had a shocker. His passing use to be a lot more accurate as well. At least he seemed more willing to step last night.

 

[Paradox]

A reliable team can't be built around him?

Do you forget who won the super XV last year, and who got back on track and made it to the finals as part of his involvement this year? I'll give you a clue - they don't wear blue.

He was outstanding then. Let's hope he recaptures that form.

 

[emuarse]

A locking combination of Timani and Douglas, while uncouth, would sure silence some critics.

Actually I really think we should use the whole Waratahs pack, if you think of Hooper as a Waratah from now on.
I mean, wernt they fearsome at Super 15 level