T
TOCC
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People say we need the likes of Justin Harrison back, but he used to do the same niggling, off the ball tactics that we are now whinging about
2012 Rugby Championship Game 2 New Zealand vs Australia - 25 August
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
Guys like Harrison and Finnigan got under the oppositions skin and put them off there game. The modern day cheap shots seem to be doing nothing against the all blacks but firing them up. Difference between a serial pest and a cheap shotter.
The Red Baron
Chilla Wilson (44)
That was me that said that a few pages ago. It was very much tongue in cheek. He was a pest, just ask Chris Jack!
We really need a hard edge though. Not the niggling, cheap shot crap, but genuine hard men.
Sir Arthur Higgins
Dick Tooth (41)
don't agree with that.
sonny was dangerous all night and pretty much at a minimum double teamed.
he was one poor pass away from setting up a great try. he was quiet as far as run metres, but he did a hell of a lot more than SFA - more to centres than tries.
A faainga missed a few tackles, fell off a few others, got wrong footed and kicked away that turnover ball for what reason i will never know.
I think Mitchell (if fit) lines up very well against whomever his opposite is. Hosea Gear is a bit meh for me. Jane is excellent, but I think Mitchell can counter him well.
Mitchell off at 60 minutes, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to the wing and Beale at full back.
If higgers isn't fit - who slots in? we need a back rower who can play 8 when samo tires. dennis and hooper not it.
T
TOCC
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Difference of opinion if nothing else
Dam0
Dave Cowper (27)
I guess that's right, but then if you look at the Chiefs vs Crusaders semifinal earlier this year, the Chiefs had a very definite strategy of belting every Crusader at every opportunity early in the game. From memory it cost 2 penalties but it also set the scene and unsettled them a bit. There's a fine line between stupidity and brilliance.
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
If we hunted as a pack then nailing someone would be a good idea. If one guy lingers and puts a shoulder in, not sure who there scaring. The retaliation is something we can't stand up to.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Really?
Thought you were better than that.
Obviously not.
Don't call me Son,unless you are going to give me pocket money each week,and buy me a new car.
Swat
Chilla Wilson (44)
Your dad sounds cool
Scotty
David Codey (61)
The way he posted, it seemed he was talking about the forum as a whole. This is not correct. In general QC (Quade Cooper) has divided opinion, and it is only natural that more Qlders have backed him than those from other states.
The same as when Whittaker was backed incessantly by NSW fans against Gregan.
codex156
Stan Wickham (3)
Hello there, it has been a while since I posted here but I want to post something here that has been bothering me for sometime now. Now I will admit that I am a rabid All Blacks fan, I live and die by our team and though while I am still modest to the opposition underneath I seethe for that victory and need it like my next breath of fresh air.
However there has been a subtle yet slow change within me that has become slowly disturbing and it is something that I need to give voice to here. I am finding myself more and more rooting for the Wallabies, I mean I was one of the loudest cheering whenever we thumped the Wallabies and those sighing with relief when we snuck past them by a mere point but I simply want to state how important it was for us to win and to secure the sacred Bledisole cup for another year.
However as time passed and Richie soon became an expected sight raising the Bledisole up high for another year it started to dawn on me that the satisfaction that I had as a fan was slowly decreasing. In the golden years of Austalian rugby I was on the edge of my seat every game between New Zealand and Australia, names like Horan, Burke, Eels and Gregan gave me nightmares that my precious All Blacks might be found wanting, the actual game itself was worse as you watched and waited, pleading for that 80 minute whistle to blow with your team infront, it did not matter by how much but that they were ahead.
Often were the times that Matt Burke would step or Larkham would put Mortlock into a hole with a well timed flat pass and the mighty All Blacks would be stunned into silence (along with their fans) as they realized that the Wallabies had beaten them with only 30 seconds left on the clock. The Wallabies had that about them, that ability to win from any point at any time given a chance that only Flash Gordon or possibly Optimus Prime might wrest victory with.
Now that I look upon almost a decade of All Black dominance with some flares inbetween of Wallaby brilliance I have to ask myself, am I still as rabidly interested in the test match? I found myself looking over this site with my lap top instead of watching the game itself because the comments here were more interesting and insightful then the commentary I was listening to at times. I realize that teams go through down times, there were 5 years there when the All Blacks had a bad run and the Wallabies held the Beldisole firmly for that period but there seems to be something missing in this team. I think that Deans can only hold so much responsibility, I mean there is equal shares to go around.
The lack of a national rugby championship like NZ has with the NPC is a crippling blow to Australian rugby, I still think the ARB need to petition New Zealand to allow a team into the NPC (sans competing for the Ranfurly shield) so that there is a base pool of talent generated for Australian super 15 teams. Personally I would hope that there was one team from each of the states competiting in the super 15 competition in the NPC so that the number of talent generated is increased across the board but that is sadly something that seems to be lost on the upper management of the Australian Rugby Board. There needs to be an emphasis placed on the forward play in Australia where a stable group of forwards are assembled and they act like a unit.
I know the scrum has improved but there has been too many times when I have seen Australian forwards out in the back line when Pocock has been left on his own trying to secure ball when he is blown away and turn over ball takes place. There needs to be a change in the mindset of the forwards to work as a team rather than leave it up to one or two specialists like Pocock and in the past George Smith. The reason the Wallabies had such fantastic ball for Gregan to play with was the fact that their forwards moved in as a group and cleared the ruck so that Gregan could unleash the back line of the worlds most dangerous team.
Will Genia spends too much time waiting for his back line to form, even when the ball is there he is waiting to unload the pass and by then the opposition have already formed and any benefit that could have been gained through quick ball is lost. Also his tactical kicking needs work for timing because he seems to kick at times when he would be better placed to pass or run himself especially when there are no runners following his kick and so no pressure placed on the catcher from the other team.
Now for David Pocock, the tag of best in the world for a number 7 has been placed on him I have several arguments against this though I do think that he is only behind Richie by a slim margin.
- Point 1: He is a master fetcher and is dominant against alot of teams at the break down gaining precious ball for the Wallabies however it seems that teams especially Wales during the home series earlier this year had his measure and were using tactics that would neutralize his legendary skills in this area, it must be said in his defence that he is often being caught out alone and so is easily removed from the tackle ball region because he is being cleared out.
- Point 2: He seems to lack the running game the Richie has developed over the years, Pocock has a great sense of timing for support and is the first one there for the maul or ruck when a player is tackled but the one off runs that alot of flankers in NZ and South Africa seem to have is not often used by Pocock, I don't know if this is by choice or because of his game play but this is an area that he needs work on
- Point 3: He is the Captain. I love Pocock as a player, strong in the tackle, great in position, articulate and well spoken but I think the Captain position is taking his focus away from the rugby and affecting his performance. With all the side work that a Captain needs to do it seems that his on field performances since he has been Captain have not measured up to his past legendary games where any ruck seemed to be an opportunity for him to steal more ball. I would love to see Pocock allowed to play his game without the other distractions required of him but like the soldier he is, he has taken the opportunity afforded to him to Captain his country however I do believe it is with the cost of more pressure being applied to his broad shoulders.
Concluding Comment: I do think that Pocock is one of the best Flankers in the world but I think with the forward pack he is leading and the glaring weaknesses there he has been forced to be more general in his play reducing his effectiveness and making his a step behind Richie though only a step. I look forward to the day when he strides past Richie but I think he will need a more developed forward pack before he will be the true force that Australia needs him to be.
As I said above, I find myself now strangely pushing for the Wallabies because New Zealand has held the cup for a decade now, the excitement and demand for the win has become an expectation of success, something I know the teams do not buy into but that I as a fan have, I no longer have that fear that Australia might threaten us as they have before and while we have lost to the Wallabies in recent years instead of following through with regular success they have become mere blots on the All Blacks record rather than an indicator of a turning of success for the Wallabies. They no longer seem the mighty foe that All Black fans have made of them over the years despite the over reactions at the World Cup which was more our collective fear of choking then aimed at the Wallabies though they felt its bite the most I would say.
Like the mighty Irish in the second test, a win there would have been earth shattering for them and Ireland, a fitting tribute to Ronan O'Gara and the incomparable centre Brian O'Driscoll who have been faithful servants of Ireland and deserved that win more than the All Blacks, it was only fate and ill discipline that cost them that cherished victory. Australia too I feel need a victory, winning the Bledisole for us will be a mere confirmation of the sheer invincibility of the All Blacks and the woeful efforts of the Wallabies however if they win not only do they cast off decades of losses at Eden Park, they will invigorate their fan base and provide a platform for them to build upon for the third test. They will have to win that test and then go on to win more consistantly if they are to win back the fans who can only carry the load of disappointment and lost expectation for so long, the weary fan who shows up defiant of the numbers and the history to cheer for a team that he loves, that lone kid in a sea of black proudly wearing the Green and Gold asking for a reason to believe that his dreams of being a Wallabie are not wasted, that he could be a part of a great team whose history spans decades of successes not decades of lost opportunity and disappointment.
For all us serious fans we need the Wallabies to start winning as winning breeds success and whilst if they lose on Saturday it is not a disaster it will merely be another day to this New Zealand fan, imagine if it was something greater for the Wallabies.
However there has been a subtle yet slow change within me that has become slowly disturbing and it is something that I need to give voice to here. I am finding myself more and more rooting for the Wallabies, I mean I was one of the loudest cheering whenever we thumped the Wallabies and those sighing with relief when we snuck past them by a mere point but I simply want to state how important it was for us to win and to secure the sacred Bledisole cup for another year.
However as time passed and Richie soon became an expected sight raising the Bledisole up high for another year it started to dawn on me that the satisfaction that I had as a fan was slowly decreasing. In the golden years of Austalian rugby I was on the edge of my seat every game between New Zealand and Australia, names like Horan, Burke, Eels and Gregan gave me nightmares that my precious All Blacks might be found wanting, the actual game itself was worse as you watched and waited, pleading for that 80 minute whistle to blow with your team infront, it did not matter by how much but that they were ahead.
Often were the times that Matt Burke would step or Larkham would put Mortlock into a hole with a well timed flat pass and the mighty All Blacks would be stunned into silence (along with their fans) as they realized that the Wallabies had beaten them with only 30 seconds left on the clock. The Wallabies had that about them, that ability to win from any point at any time given a chance that only Flash Gordon or possibly Optimus Prime might wrest victory with.
Now that I look upon almost a decade of All Black dominance with some flares inbetween of Wallaby brilliance I have to ask myself, am I still as rabidly interested in the test match? I found myself looking over this site with my lap top instead of watching the game itself because the comments here were more interesting and insightful then the commentary I was listening to at times. I realize that teams go through down times, there were 5 years there when the All Blacks had a bad run and the Wallabies held the Beldisole firmly for that period but there seems to be something missing in this team. I think that Deans can only hold so much responsibility, I mean there is equal shares to go around.
The lack of a national rugby championship like NZ has with the NPC is a crippling blow to Australian rugby, I still think the ARB need to petition New Zealand to allow a team into the NPC (sans competing for the Ranfurly shield) so that there is a base pool of talent generated for Australian super 15 teams. Personally I would hope that there was one team from each of the states competiting in the super 15 competition in the NPC so that the number of talent generated is increased across the board but that is sadly something that seems to be lost on the upper management of the Australian Rugby Board. There needs to be an emphasis placed on the forward play in Australia where a stable group of forwards are assembled and they act like a unit.
I know the scrum has improved but there has been too many times when I have seen Australian forwards out in the back line when Pocock has been left on his own trying to secure ball when he is blown away and turn over ball takes place. There needs to be a change in the mindset of the forwards to work as a team rather than leave it up to one or two specialists like Pocock and in the past George Smith. The reason the Wallabies had such fantastic ball for Gregan to play with was the fact that their forwards moved in as a group and cleared the ruck so that Gregan could unleash the back line of the worlds most dangerous team.
Will Genia spends too much time waiting for his back line to form, even when the ball is there he is waiting to unload the pass and by then the opposition have already formed and any benefit that could have been gained through quick ball is lost. Also his tactical kicking needs work for timing because he seems to kick at times when he would be better placed to pass or run himself especially when there are no runners following his kick and so no pressure placed on the catcher from the other team.
Now for David Pocock, the tag of best in the world for a number 7 has been placed on him I have several arguments against this though I do think that he is only behind Richie by a slim margin.
- Point 1: He is a master fetcher and is dominant against alot of teams at the break down gaining precious ball for the Wallabies however it seems that teams especially Wales during the home series earlier this year had his measure and were using tactics that would neutralize his legendary skills in this area, it must be said in his defence that he is often being caught out alone and so is easily removed from the tackle ball region because he is being cleared out.
- Point 2: He seems to lack the running game the Richie has developed over the years, Pocock has a great sense of timing for support and is the first one there for the maul or ruck when a player is tackled but the one off runs that alot of flankers in NZ and South Africa seem to have is not often used by Pocock, I don't know if this is by choice or because of his game play but this is an area that he needs work on
- Point 3: He is the Captain. I love Pocock as a player, strong in the tackle, great in position, articulate and well spoken but I think the Captain position is taking his focus away from the rugby and affecting his performance. With all the side work that a Captain needs to do it seems that his on field performances since he has been Captain have not measured up to his past legendary games where any ruck seemed to be an opportunity for him to steal more ball. I would love to see Pocock allowed to play his game without the other distractions required of him but like the soldier he is, he has taken the opportunity afforded to him to Captain his country however I do believe it is with the cost of more pressure being applied to his broad shoulders.
Concluding Comment: I do think that Pocock is one of the best Flankers in the world but I think with the forward pack he is leading and the glaring weaknesses there he has been forced to be more general in his play reducing his effectiveness and making his a step behind Richie though only a step. I look forward to the day when he strides past Richie but I think he will need a more developed forward pack before he will be the true force that Australia needs him to be.
As I said above, I find myself now strangely pushing for the Wallabies because New Zealand has held the cup for a decade now, the excitement and demand for the win has become an expectation of success, something I know the teams do not buy into but that I as a fan have, I no longer have that fear that Australia might threaten us as they have before and while we have lost to the Wallabies in recent years instead of following through with regular success they have become mere blots on the All Blacks record rather than an indicator of a turning of success for the Wallabies. They no longer seem the mighty foe that All Black fans have made of them over the years despite the over reactions at the World Cup which was more our collective fear of choking then aimed at the Wallabies though they felt its bite the most I would say.
Like the mighty Irish in the second test, a win there would have been earth shattering for them and Ireland, a fitting tribute to Ronan O'Gara and the incomparable centre Brian O'Driscoll who have been faithful servants of Ireland and deserved that win more than the All Blacks, it was only fate and ill discipline that cost them that cherished victory. Australia too I feel need a victory, winning the Bledisole for us will be a mere confirmation of the sheer invincibility of the All Blacks and the woeful efforts of the Wallabies however if they win not only do they cast off decades of losses at Eden Park, they will invigorate their fan base and provide a platform for them to build upon for the third test. They will have to win that test and then go on to win more consistantly if they are to win back the fans who can only carry the load of disappointment and lost expectation for so long, the weary fan who shows up defiant of the numbers and the history to cheer for a team that he loves, that lone kid in a sea of black proudly wearing the Green and Gold asking for a reason to believe that his dreams of being a Wallabie are not wasted, that he could be a part of a great team whose history spans decades of successes not decades of lost opportunity and disappointment.
For all us serious fans we need the Wallabies to start winning as winning breeds success and whilst if they lose on Saturday it is not a disaster it will merely be another day to this New Zealand fan, imagine if it was something greater for the Wallabies.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
Timani should be gone after this:
Really Sitaleki? You were just standing around waiting for the ref to call shit and he let you down?!? Is that what happened?? But NOW....oh NOW, you're gonna get aggressive and attack anything comes your way?? (his words BTW). Cos now you're angry....and the All Blacks won't like you when you're angry!! Grrrrraawwwwwl!!
Geez Timani....if it took you a whole game and then some reflection afterwards to decide that your big-ass monster of a body needs to get aggressive and you're now gonna be 'not so friendly' at the breakdown (but last week you were what?? Somewhat friendly? More like acquaintences than friends? Accomodating?!?)
If you have to tell yourself to get more aggresive, if you need to convince yourself.....you're fucked.
Really Sitaleki? You were just standing around waiting for the ref to call shit and he let you down?!? Is that what happened?? But NOW....oh NOW, you're gonna get aggressive and attack anything comes your way?? (his words BTW). Cos now you're angry....and the All Blacks won't like you when you're angry!! Grrrrraawwwwwl!!
Geez Timani....if it took you a whole game and then some reflection afterwards to decide that your big-ass monster of a body needs to get aggressive and you're now gonna be 'not so friendly' at the breakdown (but last week you were what?? Somewhat friendly? More like acquaintences than friends? Accomodating?!?)
If you have to tell yourself to get more aggresive, if you need to convince yourself.....you're fucked.
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Cully is a Kiwi yeah? Calls what Fainga'a did a cheapshot (haven't even seen it) yet Woodcock's action more as a "reckless cleanout". That was the definition of a cheapshot.
Scotty
David Codey (61)
Can you provide examples of other 'cheap shots' from A Fainga'a?
Do you have a video of this 'cheap shot' so we can determine if it indeed was a cheap shot?
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
The more questionable things that he speaks on behalf of the wallabies pack in saying they were relying on the ref. has he & the rest of them not watched the all blacks for the last decade, the refs never call the constant infringements. That should have been common knowledge.
Scotty
David Codey (61)
A few points:
1. Genia hasn't been criticised much for a good reason. He was one of the best. You and one or two others are the only ones that believe he had a poor game. Did you see the analysis that Scott Allen did? Did you go back and look at how good his passing game was, and the fact that he was one of the only ones to make a break?
Did you ever think that it might be you that was wrong when it comes to Genia?
2. Timani and Horne should not have been criticised as heavily as they were. I think that occurred because most believed that they didn't deserve their place in the starting line up from the start. Neither has been head and shoulders above their counterparts this year, and in Timani's case he hasn't even been ahead of his own team mate. When we lose, and players that haven't been in great form only have average games, their selection is always going to come into question.
3. Moore was clearly the better player throughout the season, and therefore, as you say should have got a start. You should never start a game with a player who you don't think can play 80!
I would like to point out though that the criticism is, or should be more directed at the selectors for selecting these players. These three have all performed as we would have expected, it isn't their fault they were selected!
No. The cheap shots have more come from Saia. I don't have a video of the incident Cully is talking about.
Ant Fainga'a has been a lot more confrontational in the last year than he was previously. He seems keen to get into a bit of push and shove when he can. Again, this is anecdotal as I don't have a string of videos to post as evidence.
thierry dusautoir
Alan Cameron (40)
Scott who would you say technique wise is the best front row three in Aus? We seem to pick a front row based on their aroudn the park efforts. but if we chose on scrummaging woudl it be completely different?
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Think he's lying to you, hard to find anywhere over $9
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