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2012 Rugby Championship Game 2 New Zealand vs Australia - 25 August

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Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
I suspect the kiwis would be a little more accepting this time round, particularly if Quade makes an effort to be conciliatory.

As for Cooper's abilities, there is no doubt in my mind he is our most talented flyhalf, the only ingredient required is patience to pick his moments, letting his team mates share the load.

Honestly, I'd say screw that to any apology. Enough 'cap in hand' to the ABs. Smash them. Upset them, and be prepared for derisive howls. Perhaps QC (Quade Cooper) was a little crude and idiotic in his behaviour but it's not as if McCaw can't get just a little cynical with his off the ball interference. I don't care if the crowd is baying for blood, QC (Quade Cooper) should just get on with it.. no apologies extended.

He plays with patience in the Reds set-up. He is given wide latitude to pick moments within a structure and this takes some pressure off him, but it also plays to his strengths while masking weaknesses. It may be too simplistic to say that Deans just says "go out there and make good decisions" but there is too much responsibility on players, too little on systems, and under great pressure those players make mistakes while systems can provide some greater support and a common understanding in which all can execute more efficiently..
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
It would be folly for anybody to think that the inclusion of Cooper at 10 will make one iota of difference to this team without commensurate changes to the tactics of the whole side and the basic structures. For Cooper to throw a long pass there firstly has to be somebody wide and moving to receive said pass. As with criticism of Genia's slowness at the ruck often he is left looking for somebody to pass it to since Barnes is hiding from the defense 25 metres from the gain line flat footed.

I refuse to criticize the players overly, except to opine regarding fitness and form, when it is obvious to most objective people that there are no structures and tactics for them to adhere and guide them in pressure situations.

One of the ABs tries was a beautifully worked first phase set piece move of the sort that the Wallabies used to regularly play, which the Wallabies coaches believes should never be scored in test rugby. The Wallabies under Deans are incapable of playing such moves because they are all flat footed and moving as individuals because they have no structures to play to. "Playing what is in front of you" is essentially a reactive mind set that that is what the Wallabies have, that is fine for counter attack but shit for actually creating something which with 60% of the ball in this game alone (and numerous other examples of the same issue in other tests not against the ABs) proved they cannot do. The counter attack model then fails as well when you select defensive players who have little comparative speed of evasive skills to capitalise on the opportunity.

Basically what I have been saying for the last three years, under Deans there is a fundamental disconnection between his selection of the squad and the tactics (which are at the most basic of levels - defend/territory or run). Picking Cooper this week in essentially the same conditions, tactics and selection methodology around him will do little but open him again to vociferous rancor of his detractors who will not see the fundamental flaws of the whole package as it were.

The same argument goes for Barnes who, whilst I believe has been in poor form all year for the Tahs and didn't show anything special for the Wallabies IMO in the Welsh series, has not been given any sort of platform in which to work. We should not forget either that even more than Cooper Barnes requires a firm structure in which to work as he is essentially a territory based player who can at carefully selected times run effectively. He is not a renowned distributor.

So what do I expect this weekend? I expect that Deans will continue in his pigheaded fashion to select the 22 with the exception of Hooper at 7 and perhaps throw Cooper to the wolves at 10. Do I expect the Wallabies to play well? No, but I hope they do and I hope to see some structured effective play and definitive game plan that has players in motion in attack using the whole field and not with 13 players in a 15 metre section of the field, I fear however more of the same regardless of selections. Do I expect to see the Wallabies win? No, I hope to see them play well and play like they are trying to score instead of trying to limit the damage, but I fear I will see a capitulation of monumental proportions.

The previous odds of the ABs at $1.13 appear very generous and a $10K investment would provide a far better return than the share market for less risk.

Gnostic, an excellent post and I couldn't agree more with the section I bolded.

We could have Mark Ella/Larkham at 10 with Horan at 12 and it would not amount to much if the pack cannot generate better quality ball.
 
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biggsy

Chilla Wilson (44)
His stupidity in the games of the tri nations towards mccaw created a lot further pressure he wasn't able to handle.

That was awesome . I'm glade he did that, he gave some back to him.
Pocock should have gave some back on the weekend.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Are yu saying yu didn't see them both playing in the same game or that you didn't watch one of our last two?

I saw them both play 10 vs Wales. In that game I saw cooper look like he was about to tear Wales a new one before he went off injured and then Barnes play well to 'control' the win after that.

I would say cooper was the better 10 in that game, and we would have won by a lot more had he not been injured!
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
That was awesome . I'm glade he did that, he gave some back to him.
Pocock should have gave some back on the weekend.
Maybe, if it hadn't been the root cause of QC (Quade Cooper) unravelling in front of the world at the RWC.
Knowing the Kiwi's. they will be lining up to give to QC (Quade Cooper) again if he is selected this week.It would take a special person not to be negatively affected by this.QC (Quade Cooper) was a dismal failure when last confronted by this.
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
Wow he must be pushing 7'5"
Saw this big fella as I was leaving the ground, and by geez was looking for the stilts I thought he was standing on, and take my word ,if you wanted to meet up with him in pub you wouldn't miss him.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I saw them both play 10 vs Wales. In that game I saw cooper look like he was about to tear Wales a new one before he went off injured and then Barnes play well to 'control' the win after that.

I would say cooper was the better 10 in that game, and we would have won by a lot more had he not been injured!

PS in that 3rd playoff vs Wales, we scored 2 tries. One in the time that Cooper was on the field (from a cooper pass to Barnes) and one in the remaining 60 minutes when Barnes was directing the team. I'm not even sure he had a hand in that try?
 

emuarse

Chilla Wilson (44)
Maybe, if it hadn't been the root cause of QC (Quade Cooper) unravelling in front of the world at the RWC.
Knowing the Kiwi's. they will be lining up to give to QC (Quade Cooper) again if he is selected this week.It would take a special person not to be negatively affected by this.QC (Quade Cooper) was a dismal failure when last confronted by this.

Well this is QC (Quade Cooper)'s opportunity to shut up his detractors, especially on G & G where 80% plus of the subscribers are ex-Kiwis. whose vitriol knows no bounds when it comes to crying over QC (Quade Cooper)'s shocking treatment of rugby's lord & master - McCaw.
This is rugby - get over it & move on.
The AB's will be definitely waiting for Cooper on Saturday night (assuming he's picked). He will know that. So it's up to him, & Ginea as well as Hooper to open up the corridor for players Ioane and Beale to capitalize on.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I think the reality is that Barnes and Cooper should both be in our test backline. We saw on Saturday night how crucial it is to have a kicker in your midfield.

There is no doubt that Barnes provides a level of steadiness and decision making that Cooper doesn't and Cooper provides the attacking spark that Barnes doesn't.

When he is fit, McCabe has to move to 13 so we have space for both of them in the backline.
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
There is no doubt that Barnes provides a level of steadiness and decision making that Cooper doesn't and Cooper provides the attacking spark that Barnes doesn't.

What???? You have been watching the Tahs play this year? You did watch the June tests and last Saturday right? What ever Barnes has, it's not steadiness or decision making ability.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Barnes has been one of our better players in every test this year and the few he played last year.

He consistently performs at test level.

We have plenty of players with flair in our backline when everyone is fit (Cooper, Beale, Ioane, O'Connor). Our backline has also looked its best when Cooper has been at 10 and Barnes at 12 (particularly in the test against France in 2010 that everyone keeps harking back to).
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I actually think we are in for about 18 months of hell playing the All Blacks. They are right at the peak of their powers and we, well, we simply have too many weak spots - one look at our bench makes that just so obvious.

So if my premise is correct, then what should we do? Consider these games as harm minimization options or development options.

With the former we may keep it close, the latter in 18 months we may have a damn good, blooded side.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Aside from England after the 2003 Rugby World Cup, every other World Cup winner has dominated international rugby for about 2 years after they won.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
^^^ Les Bleus almost won the RWC last year.

Should we not also see an element of Frogge dominance?

Player revolt? Coach publically giving up? Game plan based on Gallic mongrel and passion?

Are the Wobs far away from some of these characteristics?
 

Bon

Ward Prentice (10)
What is the feeling in the Shaky Isles regarding your team for the weekends rematch?

More of the same?

There is quite a lot to work on during the week, there was some sloppy passing and finishing evident in Bledisloe 1. A couple or three of the newer players need more game time to slot in better I think, I doubt Steve Hansen will make any changes to the starting fifteen. There is some concern over Woodcocks
fitness to play in which case Crocket will most probably start. The team won't be taking the Wallabies lightly, both sides showed a lot of rust last Saturday. You would expect to see good improvement this week.[From both sides] We have that home ground advantage, and the team is keen to defend their record there. The weather looks to be OK at this stage.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
Scoey --- That has been the background hum for a while now. Growden has said as much too.
 
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