2012 IRB Junior World Championship

[Riptide]

The selection of Sam Jeffries is quite an interesting story. He was a promising sprint swimmer at Brisbane’s Nudgee College when its then Director of Rugby, Todd Dammers, persuaded him to shift his sporting focus to rugby. He spent the 2009 season playing for the Nudgee 2nd XV as his main focus was striving to put weight on his lanky frame.. When he left school at the end of the year he weighed just 89kg at a height of 196cm.

When Todd Louden and Todd Dammers were recruited from the Ricoh Club in Tokyo to coach at Sydney Uni, Dammers identified Jeffries as his highest priority to recruit. At the time Sam was playing Colts for Brisbane Brothers. Last season he had major problems with groin and shoulder injuries, playing only a handful of games. He resumed playing only a couple of weeks ago, being selected for the Under 20s after David Nucifora and Anthony Eddy had watched him play for just 20 minutes. He now weighs a lean 120kg and stands 201cm. One of his major assets is a very aggressive playing style. This week I wrote an article describing his rehab program:

http://myoquip.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/groin-injury-rehab-using-myothrusta.html
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Very interesting.... if a little too much veranacular jargon.. This made me wince "

This would thereby create an adaptation to appropriate metabolic systems in addition to duplicating joint velocity and angular movement associated to his positional requirements on field."​

I know I'm veering off-track here but am I correct in assuming that a S&C coach would still favour dead-lifts, squats and power cleans for non-injured athlete?

​

 

[Bruce Ross]

I know I'm veering off-track here but am I correct in assuming that a S&C coach would still favour dead-lifts, squats and power cleans for non-injured athlete?

Not at Sydney Uni, Riptide. The traditional lifts are certainly used but there is a heavy emphasis on the use of the MyoThrusta and MyTruk as the basic tools for developing lower body strength in rugby players, rowers and elite women basketball players. Another example, in England the Exeter Chiefs have been doing very heavy work with both machines ever since they were promoted into the Aviva Premiership two seasons ago.

One reason for reliance on this technology is that since its introduction seven years ago there have been no instances of back injury or even discomfort. Athletes who for whatever reason cannot squat have no problem with very heavy loading on the machines.
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[Riptide]

Not at Sydney Uni, Riptide. The traditional lifts are certainly used but there is a heavy emphasis on the use of the MyoThrusta and MyTruk as the basic tools for developing lower body strength in rugby players, rowers and elite women basketball players. Another example, in England the Exeter Chiefs have been doing very heavy work with both machines ever since they were promoted into the Aviva Premiership two seasons ago.

One reason for reliance on this technology is that since its introduction seven years ago there have been no instances of back injury or even discomfort. Athletes who for whatever reason cannot squat have no problem with very heavy loading on the machines.
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Bruce, thanks for that. Unsupervised lifting? Minimal risk of injury? Efficacy of free weights (vs cables etc.) There isn't a high school gym or club who wouldn't want such equipment. Surprised I haven't seen more of it about

My own bias (and I recognize it as such), is for more explosive Olympic free weights for gains through full range of motion and for their impact on stabilizing muscles.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Lee/Bruce: he's shorter than Vickerman (3cm) a little taller than Sharpe but 5kg's heavier and 5cm taller than Thorn + 5 kgs.
One of thorn's greatest obvious attractions, to me at least, was his massive work rate generally.
One thing I think Deans got right when he came over was to challenge what i consider to be our obsession with size for the sake of size (@196cm thorn would not be a natural selection in Australia and I speculate whether he might have been overlooked because of this had he chosen to pursue a Wallabies world instead of a black one): as i recall he suggested that we needed more athletic and mobile guys - i.e. like Thorn (Personally I'd pick 7 Thorns and a hooker every day of the week or maybe a couple of karl Heyman's).
(a) what do you blokes think of the size for its own sake criticism;
(b) how does this kid rate in the work rate department?
(c) do you have any insight into his scrummaging - i think that was one of Thorn's great strengths (that and being able to chin the bar with 2 x body weight)

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce, thanks for that. Unsupervised lifting? Minimal risk of injury? Efficacy of free weights (vs cables etc.) There isn't a high school gym or club who wouldn't want such equipment. Surprised I haven't seen more of it about

My own bias (and I recognize it as such), is for more explosive Olympic free weights for gains through full range of motion and for their impact on stabilizing muscles.

Interestingly, Riptide, the first school to buy a MyoQuip machine back in 2005 stated that a main reason for the installation was it could be used unsupervised. The boys were only allowed to squat when supervised but were free to use the ScrumTruk whenever they wanted to.

With Olympic style lifting the bar travels through the full range but the muscles are only fully activated in the initial stages of the lift. In the later stages of the exercise movement the bar is being decelerated to avoid launching it ballistically. The "impact on stabilizing muscles" appears to me to be the main - and a very important - benefit of such exercises.

 

[Jets]

Really interesting read Bruce.

 

[Lee Grant]

(a) what do you blokes think of the size for its own sake criticism;
(b) how does this kid rate in the work rate department?
(c) do you have any insight into his scrummaging - i think that was one of Thorn's great strengths (that and being able to chin the bar with 2 x body weight)

a - anybody who thinks that size alone is the cat's whiskers is bonkers. I don't think that there are too many in that category though - unless they don't watch a lot of rugby. There are some that agonise over a bloke being 5 cms shorter than another fellow but they have no idea of the vertical reach of the players they are comparing and hardly watch how soft their hands are when contacting the ball in the lineout and whether they are better on one side of the field or the other when their inside hands switch.

I've seen posts that rave about the height of a fellow with a long neck and short arms and shake my head and wonder if they ever see the players are pontificating about on the field. Nor do these posters have an idea of how spring heeled a player is so he can get up quick and enable lifters to start their efforts from a higher point.

I don't know all these things about particular players either, but that's why I spend time looking.

As for general play: I'm a great believer in the weight of play of a player rather than his body weight. Sure, you can't be Tiny Tim - but give me a player who plays big in every game and has a big engine and is intelligent enough to decide when to make his efforts - every time. Too many folks rave about T5 forwards who have "all the skills".

b - it was the first time I saw Jeffries; so let's see. Maybe if we look at a 100 of these young chaps who we think may have the attributes, we can get a Thorn, or a reasonable facsimile thereof. When he emerges I hope that we are good enough to identify him. I confess that I was slow to recognise Thorn.

c - I always look for who locks on the TH side side of the scrum and mention it. There's a reason for it and that reason wasn't there when the pro era started. In the last 8 seasons or so we have seen the need for strong TH locks and it's because the THP is often staggered by the power hit and needs a grunter behind him to help.

I was very puzzled as to why Vickerman played on the LH side of the Wobs' scrum in the 2011 RWC; still am.
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[Inside Shoulder]

I was very puzzled as to why Vickerman played on the LH side of the Wobs' scrum in the 2011 RWC; still am.
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Injury?

 

[Bruce Ross]

Lee/Bruce: he's shorter than Vickerman (3cm) a little taller than Sharpe but 5kg's heavier and 5cm taller than Thorn + 5 kgs.
One of thorn's greatest obvious attractions, to me at least, was his massive work rate generally.
One thing I think Deans got right when he came over was to challenge what i consider to be our obsession with size for the sake of size (@196cm thorn would not be a natural selection in Australia and I speculate whether he might have been overlooked because of this had he chosen to pursue a Wallabies world instead of a black one): as i recall he suggested that we needed more athletic and mobile guys - i.e. like Thorn (Personally I'd pick 7 Thorns and a hooker every day of the week or maybe a couple of karl Heyman's).
(a) what do you blokes think of the size for its own sake criticism;
(b) how does this kid rate in the work rate department?
(c) do you have any insight into his scrummaging - i think that was one of Thorn's great strengths (that and being able to chin the bar with 2 x body weight)

(a) I don't think there is necessarily a significant advantage in size per se in the modern game. Players cannot afford to sacrifice mobility and endurance.

(b) Sam Jeffries has been hampered by injuries since coming to Sydney, so there hasn't been a lot of opportunity to assess his work rate when fully fit. Thus far he doesn't seem deficient in this area.

(c) He seems to be a very powerful scrummager. Also, with respect to body height both in the scrum and at the breakdown some people have compared him to Dan Vickerman who is the benchmark for 2 metre players in that regard. I am not sure that he has earned that accolade but the signs are good.

I am also not sure that great proficiency in chinning has much specificity for rugby, although twice bodyweight for a big man is certainly impressive.

 

[twenty seven]

Your saying that this kid has put on 31kg in 2 /3 years while recovering from serious injury?????And thats supposed to be muscle!

Has this kid played anything above colts?

 

[Bruce Ross]

Your saying that this kid has put on 31kg in 2 /3 years while recovering from serious injury?????And thats supposed to be muscle!

Has this kid played anything above colts?

That's what he told me, twenty seven. I have no reason to disbelieve him. Todd Dammers who was his coach at Nudgee and is now Director of Rugby at Sydney Uni read what I had written in the article and didn't query it. Also the two S & Cs associated with the rugby program at Uni confirm his bodyweight - players are weighed before and after each game - and certainly their view is that he is not overweight. I can get them to look up his skin folds and then I will post them.

One of the main points of my article on groin injury rehab with the MyoThrusta is that players can do serious strength work, thereby adding muscle bulk, while rehabbing.

To the best of my knowledge he has not played any games above Colts before the U20s game against Samoa U20s on Friday.

 

[Ash]

Swimmers, or at least decent age group ones are an interesting breed. Lots of lean muscle mass, gym from a very early age, and they are generally very very aerobically fit, even the sprinters. They are very very strong, despite their lean frames. If you change their exercise regime, diet and have them do more gym I can see them piling on weight.

I can also talk about some ex-swimmers who naturally bulk up as they grow into their bodies. John Roe was one example (although he was always a solid boy).

Disclaimer: I was a full on swimmer in my teens.

 

[twenty seven]

I'm not doubting you, its just amazing muscle mass in such a short period of time.
Just imagine how many young rugby players out there who wouldn't love for that type of opportunity and support.

 

[tigerland12]

Sean Cox (Easts, QLD) was called in to the side as he recovered from his hand injury, but got severly injured in the Samoan game. Looks to be out for the season with a shoulder reconstruction now. Gutted for the bloke.

 

[Forcefield]

Swimmers, or at least decent age group ones are an interesting breed. Lots of lean muscle mass, gym from a very early age, and they are generally very very aerobically fit, even the sprinters. They are very very strong, despite their lean frames. If you change their exercise regime, diet and have them do more gym I can see them piling on weight.

I can also talk about some ex-swimmers who naturally bulk up as they grow into their bodies. John Roe was one example (although he was always a solid boy).

Disclaimer: I was a full on swimmer in my teens.

Paul O'Connell was originally a swimmer I think.

 

[tigerland12]

Swimmers, or at least decent age group ones are an interesting breed. Lots of lean muscle mass, gym from a very early age, and they are generally very very aerobically fit, even the sprinters. They are very very strong, despite their lean frames. If you change their exercise regime, diet and have them do more gym I can see them piling on weight.

I can also talk about some ex-swimmers who naturally bulk up as they grow into their bodies. John Roe was one example (although he was always a solid boy).

Disclaimer: I was a full on swimmer in my teens.

Edit: I did have a statement adding to and agreeing with what you said, but apparently that offended Rugbyfan too much.

 

[rugbyfan]

Who really cares about you being an assistant coach at a swim club? This is a thread about the Junior World Championship.

 

[tigerland12]

Who really cares about you being an assistant coach at a swim club? This is a thread about the Junior World Championship.

I said that to agree with him so it didn't sound like I was talking out of my arse....maybe something you should work on

 

[Ash]

Who really cares about you being an assistant coach at a swim club? This is a thread about the Junior World Championship.

It means he might know what he talks about. This threads digress all the time, and this one would have naturally returned to the topic (rather than one of the players in particular) when something relevant happened.

Please refrain from those attacks in future. If you don't like a post or series of posts, skim over them. If you think they are inappropriate, report them. Otherwise, if you feel something has digressed too much, which this one hadn't, a polite request should be enough. Belittling another's job or hobby is not appreciated.

 

[cyclopath]

What Ash said.
The reference was relevant and appropriate, the response was not.