S
Squeak
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"only a complete knob jockey resorts to personal insults.......". Still one the finest corollaries to a forum rule I've ever seen posted.
Why is Tom Carter unpickable?
- Thread starter Bruce Ross
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T
truckandtrailor
Guest
There are valid reasons for both sides of this arguement. I believe Carter to be a consistent performer, but his consistent level for me is a 7/10. Yes, he DID score 3 tries on the weekend.....but the tries weren't setting the world on fire...and most centers would have finished the tries he scored. The angle I wanna discuss is the off field discussion, we've talked about his stats on the field, pro's and cons of his ability but what about off field relationships. I think teams tend to look at the dynamics of players on and OFF the field and what they bring to a group. Now this is just my opinion but I think some people might agree (especially people who have played Tom in the Shute Shield) that Tom is not the most popular player going around....He niggles and is consistently going with cheap talk...which can be utilised to get teams off their game... but Nick Phibbs is always talking and niggling and yet everyone gets along with him. With Carter you only have to look at opposing shute shield crowds to realise that he is not going to win the peoples choice awards. My question is when Robbie Dean's picks his squad to go into camp, do you think the mix of players is ever considered? I mean if I had a tight selection choice... I would think about the dynamics of my team. I'm sure Bruce will disagree with Tom hindering the Wallabies dynamics because he knows him personally and I am sure he knows a lot of things Tom can bring to a group... but I just thought I'd throw something up for debate.
If we're talking about selections.... I'd like to see Dion Berryman and Tim Bennetts get a few Super 15 opportunities next year.
My Wallabies Centers -
12 - 1st - J.O.C , 2nd - Gits, 3rd - McCabe 4th - Mike Harris (Robbie Deans loves his surprise selections.. if Mike plays the finals and plays well.. I think he'll get a surprise call up into the initial Wallaby selection.)
13 - 1st AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), 2nd Rob Horne, 3rd Digby 4th - Tyrone Smith
If we're talking about selections.... I'd like to see Dion Berryman and Tim Bennetts get a few Super 15 opportunities next year.
My Wallabies Centers -
12 - 1st - J.O.C , 2nd - Gits, 3rd - McCabe 4th - Mike Harris (Robbie Deans loves his surprise selections.. if Mike plays the finals and plays well.. I think he'll get a surprise call up into the initial Wallaby selection.)
13 - 1st AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), 2nd Rob Horne, 3rd Digby 4th - Tyrone Smith
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TheNextBigThing
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Good point. Well made.
Harris's injury has let him get out of the spotlight but a big finals will put him right back into contention. I'll add that Dingo loves versatility and Harris can play anywhere.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Truck & T,
I have long been a critic of TC for what I perceive are his limitations in regard to "football sense" and general skills.
But I have no doubt he is a very popular man with his teammates.I sense that he would be a great member of a squad in terms of gelling with his players etc. It's just a matter of what squads he should be part of, for me.
I have long been a critic of TC for what I perceive are his limitations in regard to "football sense" and general skills.
But I have no doubt he is a very popular man with his teammates.I sense that he would be a great member of a squad in terms of gelling with his players etc. It's just a matter of what squads he should be part of, for me.
Jnor
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Good post and I agree that other teams don't seem to like TC too much but I don't think that's the point. He seems very popular both at Uni and at the Tahs to me and has a rep as a great clubman, I don't think his attitude would be a problem in any team he was in.
EDIT: I was too slow - this is in response to truck and trailer too
EDIT: I was too slow - this is in response to truck and trailer too
FairWeatherAussie
Ted Fahey (11)
I'm pretty sure I've never seen the words Fox and facts used in the same sentence before. Although, I will admit I'd never seen the words Tom Carter and Wallabies used before tonight either.
FairWeatherAussie
Ted Fahey (11)
Bruce,
Thanks for the stats. It is interesting, stats like this are often a good counterpoint to wishful thinking.
As far as TC, he can play in 2 positions 12 or 13. Assuming Barnes is out and and JOC (James O'Connor) replaces Mitchell on the wing, Giteau should be easily the first choice 12. Behind him I would guess JOC (James O'Connor) with a specialist winger.
For 13, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is the current first choice. Horne looked superb last year in the super 14's although didn't step up well to the internationals. If he was uninjured he could also look at a spot. Digby is needed on the wing, and in my opinion not excellent as a center. Ant Finger and McCabe are both the other contenders for OC. They both have similarities to TC, good defense, strong straight running and average distribution skills. Personally I think Australia will be weaker if any of the 3 of them is required to start (TC, AF & PMc)
Thanks for the stats. It is interesting, stats like this are often a good counterpoint to wishful thinking.
As far as TC, he can play in 2 positions 12 or 13. Assuming Barnes is out and and JOC (James O'Connor) replaces Mitchell on the wing, Giteau should be easily the first choice 12. Behind him I would guess JOC (James O'Connor) with a specialist winger.
For 13, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is the current first choice. Horne looked superb last year in the super 14's although didn't step up well to the internationals. If he was uninjured he could also look at a spot. Digby is needed on the wing, and in my opinion not excellent as a center. Ant Finger and McCabe are both the other contenders for OC. They both have similarities to TC, good defense, strong straight running and average distribution skills. Personally I think Australia will be weaker if any of the 3 of them is required to start (TC, AF & PMc)
C
Couch Norm
Guest
With TC "what you see is what you get". He is never going to win you a game. The type of game he plays would not suit the style of rugby Deans is aiming for. He just doesn't have the attacking skill set for 12 and playing at 13 he would get found out very quickly as he doesnt have the speed.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
I started this thread to question the common perception that "Tom Carter is not worthy of any consideration for the national squad." Note that I referred to the national squad, not the run-on team nor even the match day squad.
With the season nearly finished I thought I would round out the discussion by considering how Tom Carter has performed in comparison to other inside backs in the Super 15 franchises. In order to keep the analysis manageable I have used defence as the principal discriminator because I view it as an essential attribute of an inside centre. Clearly not everyone agrees, as exemplified by the suggestion earlier in this thread that Quade Cooper could play either 10 or 12 for the Wallabies.
So here we have the relevant Fox Fantasy stats for those inside backs - 12 in all - who have made at least 100 tackles for the season:
Minutes played: Wynand Olivier 1280, Tom Carter 1270, Morne Steyn 1255, Robert Ebersohn 1236, Matt Giteau 1186, Stirling Mortlock 1134,Meyer Bosman 1103, Doppies La Grange 1076, Anthony Fainga'a 1057, Sias Ebersohn 991, Benson Stanley 886, Jaco Pretorius 799
Tackles made: Carter 188, Olivier 188, Steyn 185, R Ebersohn 148, Fainga'a 147, Bosman 132, Mortlock 124, Giteau 119, Pretorius 117, Stanley 104, La Grange 104, S Ebersohn 101
Tackles missed: S Ebersohn 37, R Ebersohn 36, Steyn 31, Giteau 26, Mortlock 26, Bosman 25, Olivier 24, Fainga'a 23, Stanley 22, Carter 15, La Grange 14, Pretorius 10
Tackle success (%): Carter 92.6, Pretorius 92.1, Olivier 88.7, La Grange 88.1, Fainga'a 86.5, Steyn 85.6, Bosman 84.1, Mortlock 82.7, Stanley 82.5, Giteau 82.1, R Ebersohn 80.4, S Ebersohn 73.2
Tackles made per 80 minutes played: Carter 11.8, Olivier 11.8, Steyn 11.8, Pretorius 11.7, Fainga'a 11.1, R Ebersohn 9.6, Bosman 9.6, Stanley 9.4, Mortlock 8.7, S Ebersohn 8.2, Goteau 8.0, La Grange 7.7
Tries: Carter 6, Olivier 6, R Ebersohn 4, Giteau 4, Bosman 2, Mortlock 2, Stanley 2, La Grange 2 S Ebersohn 2, Fainga'a 1, Steyn 0, Pretorius 0
Runs: La Grange 136, Olivier 126, Giteau 111, Carter 108, R Ebersohn 90, Mortlock 82, Fainga'a 73, Bosman 64, Stanley 46, Steyn 37, Pretorius 28, S Ebersohn 28
Tackles bust: La Grange 58, Carter 37, Olivier 37, Giteau 36, R Ebersohn 32, Mortlock 27, S Ebersohn 20, Fainga'a 19, Stanley 19, Steyn 8, Bosman 7, Pretorius 3
Line breaks: Olivier 10, Carter 8, La Grange 8, Ebersohn 8, Mortlock 7, Giteau 7, R Ebersohn 5, Fainga'a 4, Steyn 2, Bosman 2, Pretorius 2, Stanley 1
Offloads: R Ebersohn 18, Giteau 16, La Grange 16, Bosman 12, Stanley 9, Olivier 8, Carter 6, Steyn 5, Mortlock 5, Pretorius 3, S Ebersohn 3, Fainga'a 2
Pilfers: R Ebersohn 4, La Grange 4, Fainga'a 3, Carter 2, Olivier 2, Stanley 1, S Ebersohn 1, Steyn 0, Bosman 0, Mortlock 0, Giteau 0, Pretorius 0
Turnovers forced: La Grange 3, Carter 2, Olivier 2, Bosman 2, Steyn 1, R Ebersohn 1, Mortlock 1, Fainga'a 0, Giteau 0, Pretorius 0, Stanley 0, S Ebersohn 0
Errors: Giteau 17, S Ebersohn 17, Steyn 16, Olivier 15, Bosman 13, Stanley 13, Mortlock 11, Fainga'a 10, Pretorius 8, R Ebersohn 6, La Grange 6, Carter 5
In the entire competition only 5 players, all back rowers, made more tackles than Tom Carter. Only 2 of them, Jarrod Saffy and Liam Messam had a higher percentage of successful tackles, at 93.9 and 93.4% respectively. Saffy is the only Australian player who made more tackles.
In the entire competition only 11 players had more minutes on the field. Only 4 Australians, Mumm, Genia, Beale and Turner, played more minutes.
In the entire competition only 6 players scored more tries. No Australian player scored more tries.
With the season nearly finished I thought I would round out the discussion by considering how Tom Carter has performed in comparison to other inside backs in the Super 15 franchises. In order to keep the analysis manageable I have used defence as the principal discriminator because I view it as an essential attribute of an inside centre. Clearly not everyone agrees, as exemplified by the suggestion earlier in this thread that Quade Cooper could play either 10 or 12 for the Wallabies.
So here we have the relevant Fox Fantasy stats for those inside backs - 12 in all - who have made at least 100 tackles for the season:
Minutes played: Wynand Olivier 1280, Tom Carter 1270, Morne Steyn 1255, Robert Ebersohn 1236, Matt Giteau 1186, Stirling Mortlock 1134,Meyer Bosman 1103, Doppies La Grange 1076, Anthony Fainga'a 1057, Sias Ebersohn 991, Benson Stanley 886, Jaco Pretorius 799
Tackles made: Carter 188, Olivier 188, Steyn 185, R Ebersohn 148, Fainga'a 147, Bosman 132, Mortlock 124, Giteau 119, Pretorius 117, Stanley 104, La Grange 104, S Ebersohn 101
Tackles missed: S Ebersohn 37, R Ebersohn 36, Steyn 31, Giteau 26, Mortlock 26, Bosman 25, Olivier 24, Fainga'a 23, Stanley 22, Carter 15, La Grange 14, Pretorius 10
Tackle success (%): Carter 92.6, Pretorius 92.1, Olivier 88.7, La Grange 88.1, Fainga'a 86.5, Steyn 85.6, Bosman 84.1, Mortlock 82.7, Stanley 82.5, Giteau 82.1, R Ebersohn 80.4, S Ebersohn 73.2
Tackles made per 80 minutes played: Carter 11.8, Olivier 11.8, Steyn 11.8, Pretorius 11.7, Fainga'a 11.1, R Ebersohn 9.6, Bosman 9.6, Stanley 9.4, Mortlock 8.7, S Ebersohn 8.2, Goteau 8.0, La Grange 7.7
Tries: Carter 6, Olivier 6, R Ebersohn 4, Giteau 4, Bosman 2, Mortlock 2, Stanley 2, La Grange 2 S Ebersohn 2, Fainga'a 1, Steyn 0, Pretorius 0
Runs: La Grange 136, Olivier 126, Giteau 111, Carter 108, R Ebersohn 90, Mortlock 82, Fainga'a 73, Bosman 64, Stanley 46, Steyn 37, Pretorius 28, S Ebersohn 28
Tackles bust: La Grange 58, Carter 37, Olivier 37, Giteau 36, R Ebersohn 32, Mortlock 27, S Ebersohn 20, Fainga'a 19, Stanley 19, Steyn 8, Bosman 7, Pretorius 3
Line breaks: Olivier 10, Carter 8, La Grange 8, Ebersohn 8, Mortlock 7, Giteau 7, R Ebersohn 5, Fainga'a 4, Steyn 2, Bosman 2, Pretorius 2, Stanley 1
Offloads: R Ebersohn 18, Giteau 16, La Grange 16, Bosman 12, Stanley 9, Olivier 8, Carter 6, Steyn 5, Mortlock 5, Pretorius 3, S Ebersohn 3, Fainga'a 2
Pilfers: R Ebersohn 4, La Grange 4, Fainga'a 3, Carter 2, Olivier 2, Stanley 1, S Ebersohn 1, Steyn 0, Bosman 0, Mortlock 0, Giteau 0, Pretorius 0
Turnovers forced: La Grange 3, Carter 2, Olivier 2, Bosman 2, Steyn 1, R Ebersohn 1, Mortlock 1, Fainga'a 0, Giteau 0, Pretorius 0, Stanley 0, S Ebersohn 0
Errors: Giteau 17, S Ebersohn 17, Steyn 16, Olivier 15, Bosman 13, Stanley 13, Mortlock 11, Fainga'a 10, Pretorius 8, R Ebersohn 6, La Grange 6, Carter 5
In the entire competition only 5 players, all back rowers, made more tackles than Tom Carter. Only 2 of them, Jarrod Saffy and Liam Messam had a higher percentage of successful tackles, at 93.9 and 93.4% respectively. Saffy is the only Australian player who made more tackles.
In the entire competition only 11 players had more minutes on the field. Only 4 Australians, Mumm, Genia, Beale and Turner, played more minutes.
In the entire competition only 6 players scored more tries. No Australian player scored more tries.
Brumbies Guy
John Solomon (38)
Oh no, please not 10 more pages of this!
Garryowen
Larry Dwyer (12)
The minimum number of tackles prerequisite seems arbitrary to me. Is this why we don't see Sonny Bill and Nonu in the lists? Are these all the relevant stats or a selection that presents Carter in the best possible light? One glaring omission is try assists.
Regardless, you can quote all the stats you like, however I remain strongly of the view that Carter is not yet international standard. Moreover, it is unclear to me that he is a player of the future, in which case it begs the question as to why he should be in the squad. He is sorely lacking pace, has very poor distribution skills and has no kicking game of any note. He performs two tasks well: trucking it up and defending his channel. He performs these tasks admirably at super level, but I - and clearly the selectors to date - have seen nothing to suggest he would be nearly as effective on a bigger stage. I am particularly concerned that his poor passing and kicking game would severely limit the effectiveness of what would otherwise be an exciting wallaby back line.
Regardless, you can quote all the stats you like, however I remain strongly of the view that Carter is not yet international standard. Moreover, it is unclear to me that he is a player of the future, in which case it begs the question as to why he should be in the squad. He is sorely lacking pace, has very poor distribution skills and has no kicking game of any note. He performs two tasks well: trucking it up and defending his channel. He performs these tasks admirably at super level, but I - and clearly the selectors to date - have seen nothing to suggest he would be nearly as effective on a bigger stage. I am particularly concerned that his poor passing and kicking game would severely limit the effectiveness of what would otherwise be an exciting wallaby back line.
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