Why aren't the Wallabies playing (and winning) like the Crusaders?

[Scorz]

Newter, did you used to spell that with a "u"?

Anyway, the conditioning looked a bit poke in Chch imho.

The Wallabies aren't playing like or winning like the Saders because International Test Rugby is not a 13/14/15 week competition with regular games (including the odd soft one). Add to that, Deans has, as I have said before, the right last name for Canterbury (and the Canterbury-heavy top of the NZRU), was there at the right time for all the players that came through when he got the job for the Saders, and had the right academy/union/franchise set up behind him. It would have taken a complete idiot to screw up the Crusaders, and only a decent coach to succeed with them. Deans went further than that, he was more than decent at Super level, and he kept pace with the evolution of Super rugby thanks to the set-up behind him.

He's still got his name. He's there at a tough time. He hasn't got the best players and I don't know enough about the ARU set up to pass judgement - but it seems the lack of vision (cutting the ANPC, dividing the Super players amongst 4 teams) points to another lacking element. It's been said that Robbie's on a hiding to nothing, but TBH he made his bed, if he was too dumb to see it was going to be shitty well good. He could have gone to any number of countries, but he chose Aussie for his Everest, and it looks like a bad decision. Pretty sure the ARU are wondering if they made the right choice - but maybe they deserve more than their current portion of blame.

 

[Newter]

Newter, did you used to spell that with a "u"?

Anyway, the conditioning looked a bit poke in Chch imho.

The Wallabies aren't playing like or winning like the Saders because International Test Rugby is not a 13/14/15 week competition with regular games (including the odd soft one). Add to that, Deans has, as I have said before, the right last name for Canterbury (and the Canterbury-heavy top of the NZRU), was there at the right time for all the players that came through when he got the job for the Saders, and had the right academy/union/franchise set up behind him. It would have taken a complete idiot to screw up the Crusaders, and only a decent coach to succeed with them. Deans went further than that, he was more than decent at Super level, and he kept pace with the evolution of Super rugby thanks to the set-up behind him.

He's still got his name. He's there at a tough time. He hasn't got the best players and I don't know enough about the ARU set up to pass judgement - but it seems the lack of vision (cutting the ANPC, dividing the Super players amongst 4 teams) points to another lacking element. It's been said that Robbie's on a hiding to nothing, but TBH he made his bed, if he was too dumb to see it was going to be shitty well good. He could have gone to any number of countries, but he chose Aussie for his Everest, and it looks like a bad decision. Pretty sure the ARU are wondering if they made the right choice - but maybe they deserve more than their current portion of blame.

Scorz, I'm surprised you remember me.

I don't agree that Deans is coaching Australia at a "tough time". He inherited a side which in 2008 won him games against the All Blacks in Sydney and against the Springboks at home and away, then went on to beat England and France on tour. Since then the side has gone backwards.

Can he blame the "feeder" clubs, ie the Super 14 teams? The Waratahs were semi-finalists. The Reds and Brumbies were one win outside the top 4. Individual players in each of these sides were playing world class rugby, for instance Drew Mitchell was the tournament's form winger. I'm not sure you can say Robbie has got the best out of him.

And really, that's the coach's job. To get the best out of his players. Robbie is, by any measure, failing epically as a coach here and has been for most of his tenure.

If these Wallabies, even the 2nd XV we've been forced to select lately, were playing to their potential they'd be holding up the Trinations trophy.

The sooner Robbie goes the better.

 

[Scorz]

Who could forget your epic fail predicting the Tahs as S14 Champs a couple of years back...

You won't find me grieving if Dingo gets booted, but your point about the Tahs backs up the player issue though - they were semi-finalists. The other teams weren't. The Saders that became the SaderBlacks were Champions. The other NZ sides still challenged them up to the Semi stage.

 

[Newter]

Who could forget your epic fail predicting the Tahs as S14 Champs a couple of years back...

You won't find me grieving if Dingo gets booted, but your point about the Tahs backs up the player issue though - they were semi-finalists. The other teams weren't. The Saders that became the SaderBlacks were Champions. The other NZ sides still challenged them up to the Semi stage.

Was that the year we earned a semi spot but lost it to a side that won fewer games? :lmao:

The player issue really isn't an issue at all. Graham Henry ekes the very best out of players who either didn't make the Super 14 semis this year, or were soundly beaten when they did. Which goes to show that being Super champions is not the relevant measure of player quality.

Australia's player pool was, in toto, very strong this year.

 

[Scorz]

Yes, the year the Tahs didn't get to the semi's - no matter how you spin it, it's fact!

Super rugby is still the only real measuring stick for players outside of Test rugby. There are exceptions. Rokocoko for example, even if he's a bit "meh" these days. But you only have to point to the Bulls and the Bokke to prove that Super rugby results are somewhat inconsequential to Test rugby outcomes.

I do agree that Henry is the better coach that gets more out of his players. He's better at recognising which players fit his/the 3's vision too. He has the luxury of a larger, and better quality pool, surely you must agree on that?

BTW I still think if Deans had got the AB's after 2007 the AB's would be in a vaguely similar place as they are now, but not as impregnable and stubborn on the park.

 

[PaarlBok]

Yes, the year the Tahs didn't get to the semi's - no matter how you spin it, it's fact!

Super rugby is still the only real measuring stick for players outside of Test rugby. There are exceptions. Rokocoko for example, even if he's a bit "meh" these days. But you only have to point to the Bulls and the Bokke to prove that Super rugby results are somewhat inconsequential to Test rugby outcomes.

I do agree that Henry is the better coach that gets more out of his players. He's better at recognising which players fit his/the 3's vision too. He has the luxury of a larger, and better quality pool, surely you must agree on that?

BTW I still think if Deans had got the AB's after 2007 the AB's would be in a vaguely similar place as they are now, but not as impregnable and stubborn on the park.

Boet Neuter predicted the Tahs to take the S14 after round 5.

I'll take Deans ahead of Henry and his losers Welsch lot anyday. There aint a lot of differense between the Tri Nations lot. Between the ears the biggest one at the moment.

 

[#1 Tah]

Why aren't the wallabies playing (and winning) like the crusaders?

Because they're the Wallabies.

 

[Lindommer]

Scorz, I'm surprised you remember me.

We all would've if you had've put up your avatar. Great man, one of the greatest.

 

[Scorz]

I'll take Deans ahead of Henry and his losers Welsch lot anyday. There aint a lot of differense between the Tri Nations lot. Between the ears the biggest one at the moment.

Not a lot of difference is right. Apart from results PB! I like our coaching team, they have done a great job apart from losing 3 nil to the Bokke last year, and they rectified that this year. Not much to be sad about for AB fans lately. Even Hayman not coming home doesn't matter as much anymore!

 

[PaarlBok]

Not a lot of difference is right. Apart from results PB! I like our coaching team, they have done a great job apart from losing 3 nil to the Bokke last year, and they rectified that this year. Not much to be sad about for AB fans lately. Even Hayman not coming home doesn't matter as much anymore!

Boet ja I have read a lot about Straulis as a failure after the Bokke went out in 2003 in the WC quaters. Many a Kiwi have thrown that one to me but strangely the same lot back the Cartell after 2007. If the Cartell and his Welsch contingency have coached SA after that disaster they surely would be coaching CC 1st division. We fire coaches after winning World Cups.

I'll be a bit carefull about Deans if I am a All Blacks supporter. I'll rather wait till after the WC because he surely will do everything possible to knock you lot over when it matter most.

 

[Scorz]

Boet ja I have read a lot about Straulis as a failure after the Bokke went out in 2003 in the WC quaters. Many a Kiwi have thrown that one to me but strangely the same lot back the Cartell after 2007. If the Cartell and his Welsch contingency have coached SA after that disaster they surely would be coaching CC 1st division. We fire coaches after winning World Cups.

I'll be a bit carefull about Deans if I am a All Blacks supporter. I'll rather wait till after the WC because he surely will do everything possible to knock you lot over when it matter most.

Firing them hasn't worked for us, so I guess we'll see what keeping one does!

The whole world wants to knock the AB's over - Deans is in a long line there PB. With a dodgy ticket at the moment it seems!

 

[DPK]

Firing them hasn't worked for us, so I guess we'll see what keeping one does!

The whole world wants to knock the AB's over - Deans is in a long line there PB. With a dodgy ticket at the moment it seems!

It's so true. And infuriating!

I predict if the AB's win the WC next year, there'll be a general golf clapping from the media around the world with a handful of journo's giving them the praise they deserve. If someone trumps them in the finals, though, *sheesh* it'll be interesting to see who keeps a level head.

 

[mark_s]

We all would've if you had've put up your avatar. Great man, one of the greatest.

Can you enlighten us in the cheap seats?

 

[Newter]

I do agree that Henry is the better coach that gets more out of his players. He's better at recognising which players fit his/the 3's vision too. He has the luxury of a larger, and better quality pool, surely you must agree on that?

BTW I still think if Deans had got the AB's after 2007 the AB's would be in a vaguely similar place as they are now, but not as impregnable and stubborn on the park.

Not at all. And this does go to the crux of the matter - man for man, in terms of athleticism and rugby skill, I don't accept that New Zealand has better cattle than Australia. Even our weaker sides in the Super 14 beat New Zealand teams. The Force beat the Crusaders this year, when the Force were last on the ladder or close enough. The depth is more or less on par with what Graham Henry has available.

We are fielding a 2nd XV this season which occasionally shows glimpses of outstanding ability. I think Lee Grant hit the nail on the head - every once in a blue moon, we hit all the right targets and the side's true ability shines through. Think the Perth Test against England this year, or the Brisbane Test against the Boks.

The fact that we are not playing our best consistently is an indictment, not only on the players' attitudes and intelligence, but on the coaching staff.

I don't know how Deans would have gone as All Blacks coach. I suspect he might have been a flop. If there was a secret to the Crusaders' success, maybe Robbie Deans was not it.

 

[PaarlBok]

Not at all. And this does go to the crux of the matter - man for man, in terms of athleticism and rugby skill, I don't accept that New Zealand has better cattle than Australia. Even our weaker sides in the Super 14 beat New Zealand teams. The Force beat the Crusaders this year, when the Force were last on the ladder or close enough. The depth is more or less on par with what Graham Henry has available.

We are fielding a 2nd XV this season which occasionally shows glimpses of outstanding ability. I think Lee Grant hit the nail on the head - every once in a blue moon, we hit all the right targets and the side's true ability shines through. Think the Perth Test against England this year, or the Brisbane Test against the Boks.

The fact that we are not playing our best consistently is an indictment, not only on the players' attitudes and intelligence, but on the coaching staff.

I don't know how Deans would have gone as All Blacks coach. I suspect he might have been a flop. If there was a secret to the Crusaders' success, maybe Robbie Deans was not it.

Hey Boet, Aus had one less S14 team compare to SA or NZ. You also dont have a CC or NPC provincial competition for structure to manufacter new players.

 

[Gnostic]

Apart from what Newter says the lack of balance in the Wallabies is a massive issue. The 22 has one winger, 4 12's etc etc. Regardless of how good the individuals are you don't just play a 12 on the wing because he "has" to be in the 1st 15.

I believe we have the players, they just aren't the ones being constantly selected because some players are out of position.

 

[Scorz]

Neuter, you're deluded if you think Australia has an equal-to-NZ talent pool of Rugby Union players to draw the National team from. Not much point in discussing it further with you.

 

[Newter]

Hey Boet, Aus had one less S14 team compare to SA or NZ. You also dont have a CC or NPC provincial competition for structure to manufacter new players.

By "depth" we're really talking the top 35-40 players in any country. If a team is using more players than that, it's all over red rover.

Robbie has the talent among Australia's top 40 players to generate far better performances than he has been.

 

[Gnostic]

Hey Boet, Aus had one less S14 team compare to SA or NZ. You also dont have a CC or NPC provincial competition for structure to manufacter new players.

That has never been a problem for Oz in the history of Professional Rugby or even during the Amateur times when our Club comp was basically of the standard it is now.

The biggest impact on our talent pool isn't from the lack of any 2nd tier comp but from the dispersment of the available talent to League and AFL. A 2nd tier comp either professional or semi pro is just not sustainable in Oz ATM because of the lack of viewer base. which is dominated by those other two comps and hence all the sponorship dollars and FTA air time goes to them.

 

[Scorz]

You are totally ignoring that the players outside the top 40 can step up and create pressure on that echelon, thus constantly improving and evolving the top 40.