Where to for Twiggy Rugby?

[ForceFan]

WOW - talk about Tall Poppy Syndrome (TPS) or is it Twiggy Derangement Syndrome (TDS)......????

Andrew Forrest has been getting criticised for not putting $$s behind his words.

In 2017 Forrest offered RA >$50M for grass roots rugby and his offer was declined.
Sure it probably had conditions attached (but many people seem to believe that the Board has to go!)
How's that grass roots funding going on the East Coast out of the savings from axing the WF???

So nobody is claiming that Forrest is involved in rugby Australia wide as that offer was rejected.
But he's sure keeping the pathway to professional rugby open and making a difference in WA.
All that RA has to offer is a revitalised/super-charged NRC (with no details of how that will be achieved or funded).

So far in 2018 Andrew Forrest is funding:

• RugbyWA with a $2M commitment to get it going again and to get it out of VA;
• Full funding of the Future Force Foundation (12 males/3 females);
• Covering costs for the Western Force revival including coaching and support staff and what sound like a 30-player squad). That's probably around $4+M;
• Covering costs for 6+ invitational matches with Western Force (lets say another $6M) to help prepare WA for NRC involvement in 2018 and IPRC in 2019;
• Funding of the RugbyRoos promotional initiative to take Rugby to juniors in non traditional areas in Perth and WA. (It seems that Western Force players need to be aligned with a local club and put in 350 hrs/yr of community involvement)

Andrew Forrest is the only one trying to revitalise rugby in (at least one part of ) Australia with serious funds.
All the RA has to offer are band aid solutions and heaps of talk.

Bring on the IPRC.

 

[Slim 293]

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

I would've said............

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I am wondering if a compromise super charged and extended NRC comp being seriously looked at for Twiggyball.

Ie add say Samoan, Tonga, HK, and few others perhaps.

I think a extended and revamped super charged NRC with more Indo Pacific participants included could be more lower risk option. Obviously in the mix has to be WA side competing with other oz professional sides whether that be in post 2020 Super Rugby thing or its replacement.

But Twiggy would hold a few negotiating cards as RA wants his money invested in the game - something RA has not had much of for quite a long time (money to invest in the game).

Been awefully quiet on announcing details of Twiggyball comp and what it will look like, who involved etc.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I am wondering if a compromise super charged and extended NRC comp being seriously looked at for Twiggyball.

Ie add say Samoan, Tonga, HK, and few others perhaps.

I think a extended and revamped super charged NRC with more Indo Pacific participants included could be more lower risk option. Obviously in the mix has to be WA side competing with other oz professional sides whether that be in post 2020 Super Rugby thing or its replacement.

But Twiggy would hold a few negotiating cards as RA wants his money invested in the game - something RA has not had much of for quite a long time (money to invest in the game).

Been awefully quiet on announcing details of Twiggyball comp and what it will look like, who involved etc.

A supercharged NRC wouldn't be the worst outcome for all parties. The Force would be reinstated. Could add a few Asian based squads. Bringing the numbers to say 12. Would be able to still run it over a 12 week period by splitting it into two pools.

 

[James Pettifer]

A supercharged NRC wouldn't be the worst outcome for all parties. The Force would be reinstated. Could add a few Asian based squads. Bringing the numbers to say 12. Would be able to still run it over a 12 week period by splitting it into two pools.

I reckon post 2020. I suspect Twiggy and RA have come to an agreement that either the Force is back in SuperRugby in the next instance or if SuperRugby dies that the NRC combines with Twiggy Rugby to form the domestic competition.
That said, I think SuperRugby is less likely to die than 12 months ago given the very poor crowds from the Pro14 games for SA.

 

[Killer]

Sorry but that line of thinking is showing a complete non understanding of the depth of betrayal felt in WA.
We are not here to make up the numbers and then pay for it, in a competition at NRC level.
Twiggy and RWA's sights are set much higher, RA can either be part of it and help or be left behind.
I would be interested to know what RA's financial position is now and projected. They will be keeping that a close secret.

 

[kiap]

A supercharged NRC wouldn't be the worst outcome for all parties.The Force would be reinstated.

The Force have already been reinstated to the NRC this year.

You're talking about 2021, of course. And that's a fair goal.

But if RA don't get on board with IPRC now, then forget about any Minderoo involvement of substance with RA east of the Nullarbor later.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think there is more to it Killer - yes expanded supercharged NRC but with Twiggy and co using this bargaining chip for guarantees of Force reinstatement in whatever form post 2020 SuperRugby deal forms.

Anyhow bit of random speculation on my part which is only on bit of recent press on options tabled and fact gone quiet. Either way I do feel increasingly confident that whatever they come up with has the Force back in play 2020 as a condition of any investment in anything. But clearly I have no idea as to where negotiations are on Twiggy ball and what options seriously being considered outside of what is reported in the press.

I am just wondering if due diligence has concluded Indo Pacific competition seen as too risky versus the expanded supercharged NRC version with greater Indo Pacific participants and perhaps two pools. Of course there has to be something which offers WA participation back in professional rugby competition against other professional oz rugby sides etc as part of the deal whether that be from 2020 or earlier. I think all would understand that is the not negotiable stance of Twiggy and Co and broader WA Rugby. We all want that to happen but with something more sustainable in terms of better and stronger oz rugby environment which Twiggy and co being working on and offering to RA things like rugby roos and Twiggy's own investment so far in WA rugby.

Intrigued to see what comes out in the coming months on this (at least hope we find out within this time period what Twiggyball will be and look like).

 

[TOCC]

Sorry but that line of thinking is showing a complete non understanding of the depth of betrayal felt in WA.
We are not here to make up the numbers and then pay for it, in a competition at NRC level.
Twiggy and RWA's sights are set much higher, RA can either be part of it and help or be left behind.
I would be interested to know what RA's financial position is now and projected. They will be keeping that a close secret.

Mate I’ve being sympathetic to the Force’s plight through this whole thing and agree, the players and fans were fucked over by some very questionable decision making, and ultimately the wrong team was cut.

However going forward I think people need to seperate some the emotional aspect from this issue, RWA without Twiggy is dead in the water, it would be naïve to think that Twiggy will continue to blindly pump his $$ into the Force and IRPC for the next 5-10 years without an expectation of return. RWA need to position themselves so that they have the best of both worlds, tapped into RA through competitions whilst also leveraging the financial might of Twiggy.

Imagine if WA were included in a new domestic comp going forward, and suddenly instead of Twiggy paying for the competition operation costs he can in turn invest that money Into the high performance aspect or grassroots of the game in WA.

 

[half]

Killer

My recollection of things is TF offered 50 million over 5 years, lets assume is is prepared to lift this to 200 million over 5 years or 40 million per year.

International professional sides costs a lot of money and with 8 teams thats 5 million per team.

Thats not enough and teams would need by way of crowds, TV revenue and sponsorships need to raise my guess another 3 to 4 million maybe more. Given the PI sides and some others mentioned that is a big ask.

Still no national domestic competition and a massive amount of money spent, I can see comprise coming.

 

[ForceFan]

Mate I’ve being sympathetic to the Force’s plight through this whole thing and agree, the players and fans were fucked over by some very questionable decision making, and ultimately the wrong team was cut.

However going forward I think people need to seperate some the emotional aspect from this issue, RWA without Twiggy is dead in the water, it would be naïve to think that Twiggy will continue to blindly pump his $$ into the Force and IRPC for the next 5-10 years without an expectation of return. RWA need to position themselves so that they have the best of both worlds, tapped into RA through competitions whilst also leveraging the financial might of Twiggy.

Imagine if WA were included in a new domestic comp going forward, and suddenly instead of Twiggy paying for the competition operation costs he can in turn invest that money Into the high performance aspect or grassroots of the game in WA.

You're totally underestimating the depth of feeling in WA over this issue. It's way beyond emotional - but very determined.
East Coast rugby is dead to rugby fans in the West.
In exactly the same way as RA (with the backing of its member unions and franchises - enticed by the promise of $$ handouts) has shown that rugby in the West is dead to it.

Andrew Forrest tried to provide carrots and RA turned it's back on his $$s.
RA will live to regret that move as Forrest will certainly put his $$s elsewhere.
I'm really interested to see how RA intends to re-charge the NRC as they've already blown any perceived "savings" from axing the Western Force.

The shift in WA will be that RugbyWA will focus on the amateur game and promotion of our great game in WA - with strong contributions from Minderoo. Stronger than what was ever provided from RA.
Minderoo will promote and operate the professional game in WA and the greater region through the IPRC or even some larger competition.

RA with its parochialism and nepotism will keep stumbling around; moving from crisis to crisis and uncoordinated activities to the detriment of the game in Australia.
The game can't grow under the current regime.
The game is much bigger than just Sydney and Brisbane and the financial black-hole of Melbourne.
Rugby in Australia needs to be pruned heavily before it can regrow stronger and healthier.

 

[Braveheart81]

At the end of the day, if the best option for the professional team in WA becomes to be playing in the same comp as other Australian teams, do you think Twiggy will decide that it won't happen because WA rugby fans are unhappy?

I don't. In the end I think pragmatic decisions will be made. It will probably take a few years but that is what I am betting will happen.

 

[ForceFan]

At the end of the day, if the best option for the professional team in WA becomes to be playing in the same comp as other Australian teams, do you think Twiggy will decide that it won't happen because WA rugby fans are unhappy?

I don't. In the end I think pragmatic decisions will be made. It will probably take a few years but that is what I am betting will happen.

Totally agree BH.

So pragmatic that the other Aussie teams should be welcome to play in the same comp that Andrew Forrest creates.
But that too will take years.

 

[Killer]

Mate I’ve being sympathetic to the Force’s plight through this whole thing and agree, the players and fans were fucked over by some very questionable decision making, and ultimately the wrong team was cut.

However going forward I think people need to seperate some the emotional aspect from this issue, RWA without Twiggy is dead in the water, it would be naïve to think that Twiggy will continue to blindly pump his $$ into the Force and IRPC for the next 5-10 years without an expectation of return. RWA need to position themselves so that they have the best of both worlds, tapped into RA through competitions whilst also leveraging the financial might of Twiggy.

Imagine if WA were included in a new domestic comp going forward, and suddenly instead of Twiggy paying for the competition operation costs he can in turn invest that money Into the high performance aspect or grassroots of the game in WA.

Yes I know you have supported the WA rugby supporters throughout this farce, it was and is appreciated.

Ref your para 2, the emotional side is very powerful and is not going away any time soon. This betrayal will drive the determination of WA to be included, and thrive at the highest professional level in Aust.
All of the WA rugby public including Twiggy were treated like shit by the likes of Clyne and Clarke and the weak board.

Remember that the only reason WA is included in the current NRC is because Twiggy is sponsoring it. Originally the Perth Spirit were going to receive the same fate as the Force.

A place in the 3rd tier competition is not the goal of WA rugby supporters. That is of course presuming that Super rugby will survive. The goal is to have teams at all levels including Super and IPRC.

BTW Twiggy is not going to go away, RA can either work with him/us or be left behind.
Imo you can smell their desperation with all their new initiatives but no money.

 

[Highlander35]

I'm still a big fan of the IPCR set-up, and see it as a step towards a long term domestic future, but damn, the comments over the past little while have become almost cult-like.

 

[Killer]

I'm still a big fan of the IPCR set-up, and see it as a step towards a long term domestic future, but damn, the comments over the past little while have become almost cult-like.

Any examples?

 

[Rebels3]

I'm skeptical of the IPRC, id like to see it succeed but it needs to be done properly and not just for WA benefit. And by benefit im not talking about Rugby in Australia, but the other participants from the Asian countries involved. Otherwise what WA despised of, the way in which Sydney, Brisbane and apparently Melbourne adhered to their own needs and interests, they too will be doing exactly the same thing to these Asian countries. Teams in these countries shouldn't be used to develop Australian talent or developed as a big F u to the states, it should be used to develop their own talent.

Im sure there is many fine people looking at the competition but they need to make sure they aren't trying to become what they despise.

Apart from that i think if done right the IPRC could be a fantastic tournament that is to the benefit of all parties. 6 team round robin tournament complemented by the NRC could be great and something i'd look to engage with.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The Force have already been reinstated to the NRC this year.

You're talking about 2021, of course. And that's a fair goal.

But if RA don't get on board with IPRC now, then forget about any Minderoo involvement of substance with RA east of the Nullarbor later.

2020 and beyond is the ultimate goal, yes. That would be all the Aus franchises plus both the Sunwolves and the Drua featuring in a IPRC based competition alongside at least 3 more Asian based locations for a minimum of 10 teams. Ideally 12. But I also think that something should be done to move toward these goals in the next few seasons. Possibly based in and around the NRC. So come time all it would need is to transition the franchises that need to be into the competition. Expand it's schedule to fit and hardly miss a beat.

It could lead to an interesting competitive landscape. It depends on how the Cheetahs and Kings NH experiment is judged to have gone. So far, not great. Could see them actually returning to a new competition that could be formed if we looked to focus more on our time zones between them, Argentina and NZ.

 

[Killer]

I'm skeptical of the IPRC, id like to see it succeed but it needs to be done properly and not just for WA benefit. And by benefit im not talking about Rugby in Australia, but the other participants from the Asian countries involved. Otherwise what WA despised of, the way in which Sydney, Brisbane and apparently Melbourne adhered to their own needs and interests, they too will be doing exactly the same thing to these Asian countries. Teams in these countries shouldn't be used to develop Australian talent or developed as a big F u to the states, it should be used to develop their own talent.

Im sure there is many fine people looking at the competition but they need to make sure they aren't trying to become what they despise.

Apart from that i think if done right the IPRC could be a fantastic tournament that is to the benefit of all parties. 6 team round robin tournament complemented by the NRC could be great and something i'd look to engage with.

Twiggy is all about grassroots, has been since day 1 back in 2006.
Twiggy also has spent decades interacting and building relationships in Asia.
I would say he is across working with people, not using people as is the way of RA, or if not complete incompetence by RA.
The prime candidate to destroy rugby in Aust is RA by their self interest at board level.

 

[Tex]

Shot.

Any examples?

Chaser.

Twiggy is all about grassroots, has been since day 1 back in 2006.
Twiggy also has spent decades interacting and building relationships in Asia.
I would say he is across working with people, not using people as is the way of RA, or if not complete incompetence by RA.
The prime candidate to destroy rugby in Aust is RA by their self interest at board level.