Where to for Twiggy Rugby?

[half]

Are there even any 60 cappers playing in Europe at the moment that would be selected for the Wobs?

Seems like much more of a theoretical problem rather than one in practice.

Totally agree

 

[lou75]

If anything the lack of centralisation and oversight over the past 24months has shown why the rules are the way they are, even with all players in Australian the coaches struggled to have them all on the same page about fitness, skillsets and mindset, yet that does seem to be shifting.

New Zealand are obviously the benchmark in this area, but a centralised model where the All Blacks coaching staff have the ability to reach down into the Super Rugby teams, even to the extent that their will be some All Blacks training camps during the Super Rugby season.

If we encourage further decentralisation by promoting selections of players based Europe and Japan, then the coaching staff are going to lose all oversight and training camps with the whole squad will be irregular, lead-up time to tournaments and test matches will be slender with clubs refusing to release players outside of the test window. You're going to be throwing teams together 7 days before Bledisloe Cups, which simply won't work. Wallabies may have a collective group which is marginally better, but the team cohesion will be all but gone.

It would also signal the death knell of any domestic/super rugby tournament going forward, without the stars it won't be marketable and the Aussie teams will be even less competitive then they are now.

thank you. A good and well thought response. May I suggest that Cheika had a month with the Wallabies last year and they still , well, you know. In the old days, the Nick FJ days and so on, the Wallaby coach had three or four days to bring the team together - and those were the glory days. Just a thought. Not trying to argue. Yes, agree totally that Aussie teams may be even less competitive than they are now, but opening up more spots for hungry talent that has not come up through the pathways may be an answer - right now we have pretty clear pathways - some posts back were commenting on school boy pathways and so on, yet the NRC highlighted raw talent and the Melbourne Rebels (maybe others too), scored some new players - so opening up spots might not be all bad.

 

[TOCC]

Are there even any 60 cappers playing in Europe at the moment that would be selected for the Wobs?

Seems like much more of a theoretical problem rather than one in practice.

Tatafu Polota-Nau is about the only one, but also an important one

 

[lou75]

Tatafu Polota-Nau is about the only one, but also an important one

so the other guys playing in Europe aren't eligible to play for Wallabies but for some of them, that was the pathway when they weren't selected by an Aust Super Rugby club either. Now they may be getting different experiences, developing as better players and then why can't we select them later? Cos right now, we have 4 clubs with 35 players = 140 is the total catchment for our Wallabies selection - oops, TP-N, 141 !

 

[dru]

The players in Europe who are not available, are not available because of qualification criteria.
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The issues around the gradual implosion of the domestic major comp, following a disporia of talent are in my mind legit. But what is missed, or people disagree with my assessment, is that this is exactly the result of Clynne and his shrink to greatness implementation.
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This has forced players away from Australia and reduced the available pathways for rugby players in Australia who desire to be professional. And because of that monumental cock up this ARU led pro comp is now a Super "Ritardando e Diminuendo". 100% ARU fault, no not simply fault but "initiative".
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Given that for now, we are roller coaster hooked on the tail of the NZ rugby dragon, and hanging on for grim death ( I dont think this is simply literary). Seeking some avenue outside the box (that contains shrinkinng pro rugby) might actually be sensible.
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I know, I know, sigh. Why expect sense at this late juncture?
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Pandorra's b ox has been opened. We have forced an increasing and on-going de-patriation of potential Australiann pro rugby players. It is time, well time, to enter a way to bring them back. Our current intentions through Super Rugby do not achieve this, with or without a 60 cap rule and whether or not there are many Aus players in Europe, Japan, wherever with the magic 60.

 

[Slim 293]

thank you. A good and well thought response. May I suggest that Cheika had a month with the Wallabies last year and they still , well, you know. In the old days, the Nick FJ days and so on, the Wallaby coach had three or four days to bring the team together - and those were the glory days. Just a thought. Not trying to argue. Yes, agree totally that Aussie teams may be even less competitive than they are now, but opening up more spots for hungry talent that has not come up through the pathways may be an answer - right now we have pretty clear pathways - some posts back were commenting on school boy pathways and so on, yet the NRC highlighted raw talent and the Melbourne Rebels (maybe others too), scored some new players - so opening up spots might not be all bad.

In the glory days players used to not get paid, get hammered on the weekends and would work full time jobs...........

Not trying to argue.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Are there even any 60 cappers playing in Europe at the moment that would be selected for the Wobs?

Seems like much more of a theoretical problem rather than one in practice.

I was thinking more about the guys who aren't in that category that leave looking for more opportunity or different life experiences. The opportunity to do so but remain clearly visible and still be in contention for test selection would be a powerful motivator for many.

 

[lou75]

I was thinking more about the guys who aren't in that category that leave looking for more opportunity or different life experiences. The opportunity to do so but remain clearly visible and still be in contention for test selection would be a powerful motivator for many.

yep and one that comes to my mind is Nik Stirzaker, who is now playing in UK having been squeezed out of the Rebels. He was a big talent, at start of 2015 with Wallaby aspirations (those were my aspirations by the way - maybe his also) but he failed to thrive under TT. What is to become of him? Through no fault of his own he has been forced to seek work overseas - he may become the key player Cheika needs, but not eligible, sorry.

 

[Slim 293]

yep and one that comes to my mind is Nik Stirzaker, who is now playing in UK having been squeezed out of the Rebels. He was a big talent, at start of 2015 with Wallaby aspirations (those were my aspirations by the way - maybe his also) but he failed to thrive under TT. What is to become of him? Through no fault of his own he has been forced to seek work overseas - he may become the key player Cheika needs, but not eligible, sorry.

That’s pretty unlikely.........

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I am personally waiting with anticipation to see the other teams for Twiggyball.

Fiji I see as definite given success of first year involvement in NRC and increasing profile we are seeing with their involvement in 10's etc.

HK is the other definite, and where could be successful. With HK not sure would see another chinese team but given Chinese rugby ambitions perhaps possible. Then gets harder. Japanese team would be good (and imperative imo) but is that likely with Sunwolves in Super Rugby.

Samoa and Tonga are just too financially unviable to see them as serious options.

Singapore possibly...

Malaysia and Sri Lanka flagged but harder for me to see.

Wonder when we will get the teams announced....

 

[lou75]

That’s pretty unlikely...

more than unlikely now, it's impossible due to the eligibility rules

 

[TOCC]

If you open up the door for guys like Stirzaker, then what’s to stop guys like Perese and Uelese both backig themselves to be selected from overseas as well.

Wallaby section is the carrot which Australian Rugby has that allows it to compete with overseas clubs at the negotiating table, plenty of players knock back higher valued contracts because of the unquantifiable value of playing test rugby. it’s value will vary player to player but I don’t doubt for many, that it is the major reason players remain in Australia.

If players display performances worthy of test selection then approach them about returning back to Australia to play Super Rugby or IRPC, like Meakes and Houston have done in recent years.

 

[dru]

That’s pretty unlikely...

No, not unlikely. Impossible. Thanks ARU.

Edit: Apologies Lou for the X post.

 

[Slim 293]

No, not unlikely. Impossible. Thanks ARU.

Edit: Apologies Lou for the X post.

So, the argument is that we should loosen eligibility criteria, in spite of all the reasons mentioned above, so that a player who is well down the pecking order might hypothetically come good playing overseas?

Seems weak..........

 

[TOCC]

I’ve being critical of the ARU on many fronts, however this current approach to wallaby eligibility isn’t one of those for the reasons mentioned previously.

 

[dru]

So, the argument is that we should loosen eligibility criteria, in spite of all the reasons mentioned above, so that a player who is well down the pecking order might hypothetically come good playing overseas?

Seems weak....

No not at all. I would agree (nearly) entirely with the policy had the right actions been put in place to start with. Those actions would be designed so open opportunity for players seeking pro rugby to actually play in Australia. It would seek to build pathways with real connection. And then, those who chose to NOT utilise the opportunity in front of them can pay the penalty. Alas, the background work has not been put in position. The horse has not so much bolted, as the barn doors opened and the horses backside whipped - "get out you old nag - not wanted here!"

 

[Braveheart81]

It has been touched on by others but the biggest reason to limit test eligibility to as few overseas based players as possible is that test rugby isn't just built around the international test windows where players must be released.

Teams, particularly the tier 1 nations prepare for more time than is just allotted by World Rugby. Players who are based overseas miss a fair bit of that and it would be significantly disadvantageous if a substantial portion of your squad was in that position.

Any comparison to soccer in regards to their situation for internationals isn't really applicable. It is the global standard that club soccer is where players play most of their games and every top team is roughly on the same schedule whereby their players are released at the same time to return for national duties.

I can't see test rugby ceasing to be the most lucrative area of the sport anytime soon and along with that I can't see the other top nations relaxing their eligibility rules to encourage players to play anywhere in the world for the most money they can find. Whilst that is the case there is no upside for Australia to give the green light to as many of the top players as possible to move overseas.

 

[dru]

It has been touched on by others but the biggest reason to limit test eligibility to as few overseas based players as possible is that test rugby isn't just built around the international test windows where players must be released.

Given that the discussion is about Twiggy rugby, and the bloke was specifically looking to bring back players from Europe to a comp based out of Aus, with the stated intention of strengthening Aus rugby, I doubt very much there would have been the slightest difficulty arranging a condition of release for Aus players in the comp.

 

[Slim 293]

Given that the discussion is about Twiggy rugby, and the bloke was specifically looking to bring back players from Europe to a comp based out of Aus, with the stated intention of strengthening Aus rugby, I doubt very much there would have been the slightest difficulty arranging a condition of release for Aus players in the comp.

Actually, the discussion was a response to lou's question as to why we don't allow any Australian players playing overseas to be eligible for the Wallabies...............

 

[Braveheart81]

Given that the discussion is about Twiggy rugby, and the bloke was specifically looking to bring back players from Europe to a comp based out of Aus, with the stated intention of strengthening Aus rugby, I doubt very much there would have been the slightest difficulty arranging a condition of release for Aus players in the comp.

I'm not really sure how giving Australian players based in Hong Kong or SIngapore etc. Wallabies eligibility strengthens Australian Rugby.

The bit of this competition that strengthens Australian rugby is the Perth team and any future Australian teams. I don't think that extends to foreign based teams within the comp.

What reason is there that a player playing in Singapore should be eligible for the Wallabies purely because it is the IPRC when a player playing in Japan in the Top League isn't eligible. I don't really get the logic outside of people seeming to think that RA should say yes to whatever Twiggy asks for.