Where to for Super Rugby?

[BLR]

Getting a bit off topic now aren't we? Could probably start a 'Rugby - Existential Naval Gazing' thread and discuss laws and the way the game is played elsewhere.

To be fair, wamberal has been banging on about it being the REAL issue instead of the ARU for the entire thread so I would say it is an appropriate reply.

 

[Slim 293]

I just wish we could go back to the laws of the game that existed in the ACT in 2004, or Queensland in 2011...............

 

[KOB1987]

^^^^ someone should repeat the whole article here, it's a gem and reveals greatly as to the genesis of many of the code's severe problems today.

To those who know my impression of former Australian Rugby Union boss John O’Neill and his policies, it will seem strange that I write to publicly confirm the accuracy of a couple of things he has said that people might doubt and to give some free publicity to his book It’s Only A Game.
I could easily fill the same space he was given on these pages on May 13 with what he should have and should not have done during his two tenures as ARU chief executive. These would be decisions and actions of his that might have avoided the distressing legacy left under his watch — or maybe two deficits of close to a total of $19 million ($18,857,000 according to 2012 annual report) in his final two years.
I’ll save my enunciation of past mistakes and lost opportunities for the forthcoming summit on Australian rugby, but, to be fair to O’Neill, I must corroborate one statement from his article.
O’Neill did in fact “sack” me on the recommendation of a board member — but why does he pass the buck? He knows better than anyone that board members don’t hire and fire — that is the prerogative of the CEO, so he did not have to do as advised.
The fact is, it suited him. What he failed to do was to establish the motivation for the advice he received, which in truth had absolutely nothing to do with the job I was doing or even less to do with me. It was everything to do with the vacancy created.
If I was doing such a bad job, I should hand back the prestigious Joe French trophy I was awarded for outstanding service a year after O’Neill decided to get out of rugby.
I had objected to being ordered to write a new coaching manual for the ARU on the basis that I had to personally pay for the necessary research as well as conduct it in my own time. Was that really a “sackable” offence? Well it was good enough for those who did the deed.
Like lion tamers, there aren’t too many jobs around for national coaching directors and when you’re portrayed as a recalcitrant, defiant employee the word gets around with cruel effect.
Whatever are the failed actions for which I have criticised O’Neill, one deed stands above all — while in the position of CEO of the ARU he released a book in which he “rubbished” numerous rugby people who had served the game, and they included ex-presidents, chairmen and board members of major unions and, indeed, the ARU itself.
I applaud the current ARU for encouraging outside input and being prepared to listen. As previously indicated, I shall keep my detailed opinions to myself until I get to the proposed rugby summit, but I will say one broad thing publicly.
The worst mistake O’Neill made was to shut off outside involvement in his administration by disbanding all the advisory committees, including the National Coaching Committee. He believed the only expertise he needed was all in-house. The reality was that just about all of the rugby brains were to be found in lucrative outside professions, careers and businesses.
What Russ Tulloch neglected to mention in his recent article in The Australian was that the one person who did guide the CEO was a highly paid consultant who, when pressed, had to admit that even when in the middle of his initial rugby review, he had never been to as much as a Sydney club game.
I shall give credit to O’Neill for his marketing of the best group of players this country ever had but he should remember that the likes of Eales, Horan, Little, Gregan, Roff, Wilson and most of them were in a crop that came out of a wonderfully tended garden.
When these blooms withered with age, the subsequent crops lacked the same quality because of one simple thing. The garden in which they grew had been neglected and certain vital elements in the soil had been removed. The in-house people in charge just didn’t know enough about “rugby horticulture”.
Getting Australian rugby out of its malaise requires a lot of smart thinking and co-operation among the stakeholders that has never existed under previous regimes who could easily be accused of using the “divide and conquer” strategy of centralists.
My comments at the proposed summit will be pretty much confined to the technical side, but if the subject of centralism is raised I’ll simply say: we tried it and it was a costly experiment that didn’t work with nearly every major union going broke under it.
Rugby was conned when it was told to hand over all the property and control to the peak body where it contended to increase the revenue and hand back much bigger dividends to the shareholders. The elite players and peak body administrators lived like kings, but the clubs will tell you the money just didn’t trickle down as promised.
I haven’t seen an agenda for the forthcoming summit, but I hope it goes beyond coaching. In any case, I’ll be suggesting that the following items be added: external expertise, foreign coaches, competitions, player recruiting and retention, law changes, collective bargaining agreement, skill development centre, academies and the under-20s.
There is so much to be achieved by getting all these elements working in the well-oiled machine we had working when the “amateurs” handed it over.
It was just so condescending when they were told that the introduction of money relegated them to dinosaur status.

 

[Leo86]

Much kudos to Rocky for his desire to buy into Australian Rugby. Happy that he's picked Melbourne, but why hasn't he also looked at the Force?

Ummm he was born in Melbourne, maybe some attachment exists and wants rugby to succeed there.

 

[oztimmay]

Ummm he was born in Melbourne, maybe some attachment exists and wants rugby to succeed there.

That aside, he is a businessman, and would no doubt wish to seek an opportunity to further his business interests.

 

[dru]

You think there is any logic left in this process?

Obviously they were trying to do that initially but then realised that it would be impossible to drop 2 teams entirely so have gone for a completely random solution.

Why not create a seventh team and put 1 team in the Pro12, 1 team in the Aviva Premiership, 1 in the top 14 and keep 4 in Super Rugby.

James, yes It's a conundrum, but perhaps not the contradiction you imagine - if you look to the detail. And of course if the reported detail is correct.

Firstly SARU are trimming the Pro and Quasi pro teams. In RSA this is more than just Soup. If i have it right, they will trim, what is effectively Currie Cup to 8 (currently 14 including Namibia). It's probably following their normal two tier issue, though some Saffer fans have suggested mergers between the non-Franchise holding Provinces.

Next the distribution of funds changes. In essence (I doubt things will strictly comply to the intent) Currie Cup teams get funds from Currie Cup. Soup franchise teams get the funds from Soup. The Pro 12 teams get the funds from Pro 12.

Previously the funds were spread widely across the provinces, even where certain provinces may not have been particularly contributing to the comp earning the funds.

What this is intended to do is to provide a major fund increase to the Soup teams in order to attempt to better compete with Europe and to hold players from running. So the "concentration" of talent is not specifically 6 teams down to 4. It is also an attempt to reclaim some of the 100s of players in Europe. And of course there is the concentration of 14 down to 8.

There are questions around this in terms of funding grass roots. I would imagine however that the Model C Schools (like our GPS system, sort of) will remain self funded. And in the mean time the new Minister of Sport has given a statement that the Govt Schools need to pull their weight in spreading the game to the black townships.

The SARU process is very early days and there are plenty of opportunities for the wheels to fall off. But right now SARU is leaving the ARU looking like the unengaged, rank amateurs that they are inevitably proving themselves to be.

The one missing element from statements I have seem so far is coaching pathways - noting that RSA is a billion miles ahead of us anyway.

 

[James Pettifer]

James, yes It's a conundrum, but perhaps not the contradiction you imagine - if you look to the detail. And of course if the reported detail is correct.

I'd be interested in the wording of the broadcast contract with SAANZAR. If I were the broadcaster, I would be very unhappy with the concept of a competing international competition to Super Rugby in South Africa (and if they were at all vaguely sensible, they would have an exclusivity arrangement on this). You could argue that the SARU would have checked this before talking about it but based on the ARU's practices of announcing things without reading legal contracts ...

I would also think that the partners in SAANZAR would be extremely concerned. Surely if this is successful, then the next step is for SA to leave SuperRugby entirely. Does SAANZAR have any veto rights here?

I notice that the talk in the UK papers is about the Pro12 expanding to the US and Canada (with the aim to start in 2018). Surely adding South Africa will just make this even more of a mess than Super Rugby. And surely South African teams can't enter the European Cup (I know Australia has entered Eurovision but still...)

I do also note that they announced an expansion in 2005 with South Africa (but which was canned) and that there was talk in 2009 as well.

 

[stoff]

If it is the same broadcaster for Pro12 and Super Rugby in SA it would probably add value as they have increased interest in Pro12, similar interest in Super Rugby, and more games in a friendly timeslot overall. If not, then different story.


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[RedsHappy]

From the above Marks article, please posters indulge me a brief personal favourite:

"I could easily fill the same space he was given on these pages on May 13 with what he should have and should not have done during his two tenures as ARU chief executive. These would be decisions and actions of his that might have avoided the distressing legacy left under his watch — or maybe two deficits of close to a total of $19 million ($18,857,000 according to 2012 annual report) in his final two years."​

 

[wamberal]

Yep. The self-styled saviour of the game, JON.


Haw, haw, haw.

 

[James Pettifer]

If it is the same broadcaster for Pro12 and Super Rugby in SA it would probably add value as they have increased interest in Pro12, similar interest in Super Rugby, and more games in a friendly timeslot overall. If not, then different story.


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I can't tell who is doing Pro12 in South Africa (possibly no one).

There is some cross over between Super Rugby in Europe and Pro12 with Sky Sports being involved in both but there is a FTA element in the Pro12 as well.

I guess the Pro 12 is coming out of their current agreement next year, so maybe out of this they would be able to work out something sensible.

Current broadcasters - Pro12

• TG4 (2001–2004, 2010–present)
• BBC Wales (2001–present)
• S4C (2001–present)
• BBC Northern Ireland (2001–2004, 2010–present)
• BBC Alba (2010–present)
• BBC Scotland (2001–04, 2014–present)
• Sky Sports (2014–present)
• beIN Sports (2014–present)
• Setanta Sports (Live 2004–10, Highlights 2010–)
• Eurosport (2016–present)
• The Rugby Channel (2016–present)

Current Broadcasters - Super Rugby

BROADCASTER ​

TERRITORY​

SuperSport Africa and adjacent islands
Fox Sports Australia Australia
Sky Network Television New Zealand
ESPN/TSN South America - ESPN Sur, USA - live ESPN 3, Canada - live on TSN Go
J Sports Japan
Setanta Sports Asia - Asia-Pacific: American Samoa, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Burma (Myanmar), Cambodia, China (Peoples Republic), Cook Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Fiji, French Polynesia, Guam, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Kiribati, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Macau, Malaysia, Maldives, Marianas, Marshall Islands, Mongolia, Nauru, Nepal, New Caledonia, Niue, Northern Marianas, North Korea, Pakistan, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Singapore, Solomon Islands, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Taiwan (Republic of China), Thailand, Timor-Leste, Tokelau, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vanuatu, Vietnam, Wallis and Futuna, and Western Samoa
OSN - Afghanistan, Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, West Bank, Gaza Strip and Palestine
Sky Italia - Italy, Vatican City, San Marino and Canton Ticino, Switzerland
Canal+ - Andorra, France (including French Overseas Departments and Territories), Monaco, Luxembourg and French-speaking Switzerland
Sky UK - United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) and Northern Ireland, Ireland, Channel Islands and Isle of Man

 

[Strewthcobber]

I think most critics lay most of the ARU's woes on JON, not the current mob.

I think Billy P has done some good things, but this current saga has his fingerprints all over it, and it's just not credible to describe the the ARU's performance in this significant issue,as anything but incompetent.

Yep

JON spent on average $3m more than he generated every year.

The independent directors told Pulver to sort this out and as a result he's stripped the equivalent of $8-$10m out of general expenditure relative to earnings every year.

Some of that has been given back to the Super teams.

Stripping budgets back that much is a pretty good way to get everyone involved in the game to be pissed off with you!

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[Rugbynutter39]

So media reporting major radical shake up of rugby with factions preparing to do remove Pulver and major bloodletting in ARU. Gees that would be welcome and if anything this mess does is help those who care about our game to rise up and do something to address and deliver change then that would be a good thing. As imagine many have stood by busy with other aspects of their lives and prepared to watch unfold when now more than ever rugby in this country needs them to step up and save our game.
Be interesting to see how correct this media report is....

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yep



JON spent on average $3m more than he generated every year.



The independent directors told Pulver to sort this out and as a result he's stripped the equivalent of $8-$10m out of general expenditure relative to earnings every year.



Some of that has been given back to the Super teams.



Stripping budgets back that much is a pretty good way to get everyone involved in the game to be pissed off with you!



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I actually do feel for Billy Pulver as pretty tough gig.

 

[Killer]

That aside, he is a businessman, and would no doubt wish to seek an opportunity to further his business interests.

his problem imo, and the VRU for that matter, is that Clyne is prepared to spend much more to extract himself and the board from this mire. Up to Mr Cox now to make a decision with his heart or his pocket, no rush until the EGM starts, then all Mr Cox's leverage will be gone.

 

[RedsHappy]

The essence of the Marks article seems to me this:

The move to professionalism in Australian rugby, for many reasons but nonetheless critically, never meant or yielded an comprehensive evolutionary strategy to ensure the quality, growth and organisational health of the code at all its important layers and levels, from the basic community clubs and schools and into the furtherance of a serious coach and coaching development system to build upon the achievements of the prior amateur era.

Instead, and JO'N Mk I was central to this, what was rapidly created in place of many of the best elements of this preceding amateur decade or more, was a central, near-obsessive focus on the seeming 'elite' elements of the code, namely: lots of HQ 'HPU specialists' sitting mostly in HQ, rich salaries for elite players, rich salaries for many more ARU HQ managers, 'Wallabies as kings of the pyramid', 'marketing' investments at elite levels and, particularly, the notion that the historical feeder system of largely amateur coaching and amateur grassroots, club and GPS schools infrastructures could be taken for granted to just 'keep on producing great Wallabies' and is if little else really mattered or was required of these core code-quality building blocks that sat quietly in the background as the new glamour model was to unfold.

The meaning of this is that there was never a true whole-of-code quality and development strategy created for the professional era that would 'enrich (not in money) the roots and build the whole garden' as Marks has so aptly put it above.

Rather, there was the creation of a new elite rugby system and self-isolating strata that would essentially cruise on top of the thus very slowing decaying (but decaying none the less) underlying amateur player and player quality development and coaching infrastructure.

This crucial core strategic deficiency - that was propagated onwards from around 1996 and remains substantially uncorrected today - is absolutely at the heart of the code's travails today.

 

[RedsHappy]

Yep. The self-styled saviour of the game, JON.


Haw, haw, haw.

++ He recently advocated that we should be moving to 6 Super Rugby teams......as well as writing numerous articles totally removing and exonerating any responsibility he might have for even the smallest of the code's financial and performance problems today.

It may not have wholly escaped posters' attention that JO'N was an ex-senior banker, just like our esteemed ARU Chairman today, Cameron Clyne.

 

[WFDS]

Wallabies hooker Tatafu Polota-Nau has made a passionate plea for the ARU to keep the Western Force alive, saying rugby is thriving in Western Australia and has the potential to become a future gold mine.
Either the Force or Melbourne Rebels will be axed from the Super Rugby competition before next season after the ARU agreed to cull one of the Australian franchises.
The Force have struggled to make an impact on the field since their inception in 2006.
But rugby at grassroots level has grown significantly in WA over that period, and the Force are starting to reap the benefits.
The Force squad now boasts nine West Australians, including star Wallaby Dane Haylett-Petty.
The squad also has a further three players who were brought up elsewhere but made it to the senior side by progressing through WA's rugby ranks.
Polota-Nau only joined the Force at the end of last season, but he's been blown away by the strength of rugby in WA.
"You actually need WA for the game to grow," Polota-Nau told AAP.
"I'm just proud of what they've done - especially in the community - to grow the game over here.
"To be honest, it's up there with the club competitions of both NSW and Queensland.
"The proof is in the pudding when nine of our squad members are locally born and already cracking into the starting 15."
Polota-Nau has enjoyed a standout season with the Force, and he would love to re-sign with the Perth-based franchise beyond this year.
But until a decision is made on the Force's future, Polota-Nau is unable to put pen to paper.
Polota-Nau spent 11 seasons at the Waratahs before shifting to the Force.
He's kept a close eye on his former club - particularly the situation where frustrated Waratahs fans have started booing their own players.
Polota-Nau said it was a completely different story at Force home games.
"Over here, the rugby community is really behind the Force," Polota-Nau said.
"Playing games at the Forcefield - the fans are there until the very last minute. It's unbelievable.
"Compare that to what's going on with my old club the Waratahs - how much of a crisis it's in in terms of their members.
"It's something you can't buy - the loyalty the fans have over here."
The Force's finals hopes were given a massive boost last weekend when they notched a shock 16-6 win over the Jaguares in Argentina.
With four of their final five games at home, the Force have the chance to top the Australian conference.


https://thewest.com.au/sport/rugby-union/polota-nau-pleads-for-forces-super-future-ng-s-1726134

 

[RedsHappy]

So media reporting major radical shake up of rugby with factions preparing to do remove Pulver and major bloodletting in ARU. Gees that would be welcome and if anything this mess does is help those who care about our game to rise up and do something to address and deliver change then that would be a good thing. As imagine many have stood by busy with other aspects of their lives and prepared to watch unfold when now more than ever rugby in this country needs them to step up and save our game.
Be interesting to see how correct this media report is..

Prediction: it won't happen (even though I'd love it to).

Australian rugby has an awful, awful history of (a) 'inner factions' either wimping out at the cusp of serious confrontations with the ultimate elite, or (b) the institutionally 'corrupt' system of interlocking self-protections for ARU directors and State RU directors effectively agreeing that their preservation in these roles is way more important than radical reform of the overall system and the allowing into it of dangerous and threatening new parties that might act as serious change agents and reformers of the code overall, and more particularly the cosy existence of the traditional elite-preserving MOs.

 

[TOCC]

If South Africa are looking to get a team in Europe, could the cut Australian team break into Japan?

Obviously plenty of hurdles, logistical issues and far from ideal, but would it be better then the current alternative which the ARU are pushing?