Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

It's not trolling. The ARU has to cut one team. I don't see what the fuss is about to be honest. Just cut the 3 teams that need to be cut and let's get back to hving a great rugby competition.

It's clear that Australian rugby doesn't have the depth yet to sustain 5 teams at this level.

Nah aru quite keen to ditch a side as can't afford to keep bankrolling so many teams but failing to realise they have invested in a flawed model

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[Inside Shoulder]

It's clear that Australian rugby doesn't have the depth yet to sustain 5 teams at this level.

I assume "yet" is a typo if not: our pathways are so broken that I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a resurgence

 

[dru]

I assume "yet" is a typo if not: our pathways are so broken that I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a resurgence

OK. Fix the pathways?

 

[Sauron]

Interesting article in The Guardian today, where Andrew Hore (Waratahs CEO) suggests that the NRC teams could enter the NPC in order to generate more revenue. He also says that it would take only 2 or 3 years, max, for Australian rugby to turn it around.

It's nice that he's optimistic, and it's nice to see somebody involved in managing the game (as opposed to well-meaning but powerless fans) proposing alternatives. If something like this got up, I suspect that this would be a way of NZR testing the waters of a post-Supe world.

I said earlier in this thread that at some point in time, New Zealand Rugby is going to have to decide between continuing with Super Rugby, or watching their closest neighbouring professional national union go bust. I think that the events of the past couple of months have only made that dilemma even more pressing.

 

[Rebels3]

Interesting article in The Guardian today, where Andrew Hore (Waratahs CEO) suggests that the NRC teams could enter the NPC in order to generate more revenue. He also says that it would take only 2 or 3 years, max, for Australian rugby to turn it around.

It's nice that he's optimistic, and it's nice to see somebody involved in managing the game (as opposed to well-meaning but powerless fans) proposing alternatives. If something like this got up, I suspect that this would be a way of NZR testing the waters of a post-Supe world.

I said earlier in this thread that at some point in time, New Zealand Rugby is going to have to decide between continuing with Super Rugby, or watching their closest neighbouring professional national union go bust. I think that the events of the past couple of months have only made that dilemma even more pressing.

I'd like that, it'd definitely make losing a team easier if one of the force or rebels were in the NPC. Can't see it happening thou and ultimately you'd rather Super team than not.

 

[zer0]

I'd imagine that the costs of a trans-Tasman NPC would be prohibitive at that level of rugby.

 

[Twoilms]

I'd imagine that the costs of a trans-Tasman NPC would be prohibitive at that level of rugby.

You can almost fly to new zealand for the cost of a full tank these days. I wouldn't think so.

 

[RedsHappy]

Interesting article in The Guardian today, where Andrew Hore (Waratahs CEO) suggests that the NRC teams could enter the NPC in order to generate more revenue. He also says that it would take only 2 or 3 years, max, for Australian rugby to turn it around.

It's nice that he's optimistic, and it's nice to see somebody involved in managing the game (as opposed to well-meaning but powerless fans) proposing alternatives. If something like this got up, I suspect that this would be a way of NZR testing the waters of a post-Supe world.

I said earlier in this thread that at some point in time, New Zealand Rugby is going to have to decide between continuing with Super Rugby, or watching their closest neighbouring professional national union go bust. I think that the events of the past couple of months have only made that dilemma even more pressing.

That article is re-quoted in NZ's stuff.co.nz where these important statements are added by Hore (my emphasis).

In so doing - shocks, horrors - Hore has duly broken one of the Great Golden Rules of Australian rugby elites' conduct within their notoriously closed circles.

Namely, never, ever, make statements that infer (a) any leader(s) of the code here has been deficient in their duties and roles and/or (b) imply that any elite body is genuinely accountable for key outcomes for the rugby community (vs excuses and pass-off explanations).

In the breach, he's to be roundly congratulated for so doing and breaking open the protective cone of silence, thus:

"Hore told the Guardian the game was "in crisis" in Australia, as the imminent Super Rugby team axing, falling attendance numbers and declining television ratings sit alongside the poor on-field results.​

​

The Waratahs boss said it was time for the Australian game to take a close look at those running the sport.​

​

"It could have something to do with the maturity level and maybe the age of some of the administrators in this part of the world … we're starting to see is some tired individuals, people who don't know what else is out and about," he said.​

​

And the Kiwi official had no hesitation in pointing to the main weakness in Australian rugby.​

​

"We don't have a great deal of collaboration," he told the Guardian.​

​

"That's the big difference between here and New Zealand. There's almost a feeling with that group (Australian administrators) of being intimidated by consulting down. It's as if they're embarrassed if they don't have the answer to bring to the table. I say give the problems to the people to bring back some solutions."​

 

[TOCC]

I'd imagine that the costs of a trans-Tasman NPC would be prohibitive at that level of rugby.

Its an interesting prospect, especially when you gauge the potential return from broadcasters, it may more then offset the cost of the travel costs.

NZRU would be reluctant or reserved about such concept though, the ITM Cup works for them in its current state, its not a financial cash cow but it serves its purpose of feeding Super Rugby and the All Blacks and that competitiveness allows cash to flow down, so why would the NZRU risk compromising something which already works. The simple answer is, they wouldn't, it doesn't suit NZRU interests.

 

[zer0]

You can almost fly to new zealand for the cost of a full tank these days. I wouldn't think so.

Sure. For a single person. Flying a matchday squad, a few travelling reserves and management back-and-forth across the Tasman a bit more expensive.

NZRU would be reluctant or reserved about such concept though, the ITM Cup works for them in its current state, its not a financial cash cow but it serves its purpose of feeding Super Rugby and the All Blacks and that competitiveness allows cash to flow down, so why would the NZRU risk compromising something which already works. The simple answer is, they wouldn't, it doesn't suit NZRU interests.

This is a key issue. IIRC a few unions made losses last year, but most have been making (largely small) profits for the last couple of years after being given the hard word from the NZRU. Crisscrossing the Tasman is going to balloon costs and put most back into trouble.

As you allude to, the TV money would have to cover the costs, and some more, for it to be even in consideration.

 

[No4918]

Did Hore actually consult anybody? Look's like his idea is just a populist thought bubble that he knows has little chance of taking off but spoken to show he is an ideas man and support his argument against those running the game are too closed off. He is right on the last front but am curious about his intentions.

Please don't point out to me that i don't like the ARU, want people to speak up against them yet, I'm cynical when they do

 

[Gnostic]

If there is no Super Rugby and a broadcast deal is achieved for a Trans Tasman comp to replace it that is a game changer for all parties. WIth Super Rugby in existence it hog ties everyone to a under performing go nowhere competition that will finish professional Rugby in Australia, at which time the NZRU will have to find an alternative tier 1. Maybe they already have a plan for that with their demo games in the US and support for the Sunwolves.

In all honesty I don't blame the NZRU, JON MK1 didn't assist them in 2003 to achieve the clean stadia they needed and happily took the RWC windfall (and pissed it up the wall assisted by Flowers and general stupidity of the board and RUPA), AND given the levels of incompetence displayed by the ARU why would your hitch you wagon to them, that would be absolute stupidity of the highest order unless the ARU ceased to exist and real reform was achieved across the whole of Australian Rugby.

 

[Twoilms]

Did Hore actually consult anybody? Look's like his idea is just a populist thought bubble that he knows has little chance of taking off but spoken to show he is an ideas man and support his argument against those running the game are too closed off. He is right on the last front but am curious about his intentions.

Please don't point out to me that i don't like the ARU, want people to speak up against them yet, I'm cynical when they do

Following on from your last point, surely you can criticize the idea without being entirely hypocritical. Criticizing the intention is a bit harsh.

 

[RedsHappy]

In the speculative scenario that I have outlined here before, namely sometime c. late 2018-2019 the ARU declares a financial and commercial emergency, IMO Aus rugby will then be bailed out by World Rugby with major direct aid, influence and support from the NZRU. (EJ (Eddie Jones) will be asked to play a big role in the Australian from-the-bottom-up radical rugby reconstruction.)

The well-run NZRU is strategically astute and strategically focussed.

They know that if Aus rugby terminally collapses, alongside an increasingly fragile, weakening SARU that may fail to generate the same Springbok quality as in the past, it will be seriously bad for NZ rugby in the long-term.

The NZRU needs (a) a sound flow of media $s to fund its operations and (b) a layer of play between the NPC and AB Tests in order for the AB brand and its deeper substantive quality of skill and dominance to be maintained. They cannot transport the ABs to be effectively based outside NZ playing mostly NH Test teams.

Most importantly, it's blindingly obvious that the NZRU knows vastly more regarding how to run an effective, holistic rugby developmental and playing system than does virtually any party in the ARU or State RUs here.

They would add a huge amount of managerial and skills-specialisation value to the code here if asked to play a key role in its complete reconstruction and gradual revival.

Bring on a big-enough Aus rugby crisis asap as the third-raters and self-centred networkers we have running the code here are sleepwalking it into the ground and slowly grinding it to dust.

 

[Twoilms]

^^^^
If only we could create some kind of organisation to co-ordinate efforts between the nations to create a strong rugby brand in the southern hemisphere.

 

[Sauron]

Sure. For a single person. Flying a matchday squad, a few travelling reserves and management back-and-forth across the Tasman a bit more expensive.



This is a key issue. IIRC a few unions made losses last year, but most have been making (largely small) profits for the last couple of years after being given the hard word from the NZRU. Crisscrossing the Tasman is going to balloon costs and put most back into trouble.

As you allude to, the TV money would have to cover the costs, and some more, for it to be even in consideration.

Clearly nobody would agree to a competition that can't cover its own costs (I mean, not on top of the money-burning exercise of Super Rugby anyway). If they could get in-kind sponsorship from QANTAS, Air NZ, or even Jetstar, the comp could work.

I'd assume that Fox would be much more interested in such a comp than they are in the NRC and ITM Cup as separate propositions. You'd also probably have to either cut the two Country sides or give them a fixed home ground, though. If a team can't be cut in time for the Super Rugby season next year due to legal action, we might see something like this in the ensuing interregnum.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

OK. Fix the pathways?

No money.
No will to do so.
No idea what to do or where to start. 3 competing codes better at it and in the game of doing it longer.

I'd like that, it'd definitely make losing a team easier if one of the force or rebels were in the NPC. Can't see it happening thou and ultimately you'd rather Super team than not.

NZ's long held position is no Aus teams in NPC. Tew seems very anti Aus - but he may be taking a line to produce an outcome.
Super actually got going back in the day because of the huge effort the QLD made in playing NZ provincial teams and the rewards that provided for them in their annual clashes with NSW.

 

[No4918]

No money.
No will to do so.
No idea what to do or where to start. 3 competing codes better at it and in the game of doing it longer.

Will extra money do much to help the pathways? Seems more a structural than funds issue and your points 2 and 3 are the serious problems holding back change.

 

[TOCC]

NZ's long held position is no Aus teams in NPC. Tew seems very anti Aus - but he may be taking a line to produce an outcome.

Once rugby is dead and buried in Australia, where does Tew think the AFL and NRL are going to look at next?

Auckland 9's, whilst struggling, still dwarfs the crowds which attend the Wellington 7's, and the Warriors are increasingly targeting New Zealand rugby's best talent.

 

[Sauron]

Will extra money do much to help the pathways? Seems more a structural than funds issue and your points 2 and 3 are the serious problems holding back change.

Money will help, at least if it's well-spent. Australian rugby needs to be able to provide top-notch coaching and decent training facilities. We're competing with football codes that are more-or-less semi-professional from under 15s.