Where to for Super Rugby?

[Brumby Runner]

They want a more competitive tournament than is currently being presented because they know the current structure/unbalance of the competition is not sustainable. If you continue with a non-competitive competition in the long run the whole competition will be in big trouble regardless of how well the NZ teams are doing. They need South Africa and Australian rugby to be strong in the near future and having too many teams in both countries cases was having the opposite effect. They were against South Africa getting 6 teams but relented.

Relented then but taking a hard revenge now.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

How do you work out NZ drag in the least amount of money? I would of thought that they probably drag in a fair amount as aren't we always told games involving NZ teams are the most watched games, even in Aus.
I think it time to stop playing the blame game, as from what I have read in statements from ARU it seems ARU made the decision to drop an Aus team, and THEY took it too Sanzaar, because the declining incomes over the last 5 years, and they couldn't afford to bail out franchises, instead use the money saved to go towards developing rugby. From what I can see NZRU's only part in it was not having any appetite for a Trans Tasman comp. I only hope that the money saved is used on grassroots rugby, and they stick with the idea that teams have to support themselves, and that is partly up to the supporters who have stopped turning up to these games of the teams they claim to support!

No, they are the most watched games outside of the Aus derbies in Australia.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

I think the Force didn't necessarily sign Foley as a coach either. I think something happened where he was signed to be a coaching director or some such, but ended up becoming head coach when some other deal fell away and time ran out.

I dunno if other Force people on the forum can clarify this for me?

The force panicked and signed Foley. Foley didn't want to be head coach but some sort of director of coaching. From memory the plan was to sign mulvahil to be hc however that deal fell through and Foley took control of the team with stiles and meehan his assistants along with chook fowler. This didn't go well and with in a year they were all gone.

 

[amirite]

Force have a bigger supporter base, produced more local talent, have the same success rate and are even revolutionizing the ownership game.

Have they produced more local talent per year of operation or collectively? Because the Rebels are a younger franchise.

The Rebels' first batch of kids who've gone completely through their development pipeline are U20 aged, the Force's are almost mid-20s. Of course you'd expect to see more of them playing Super rugby.

When we're lauding development it's also worth realising the Force at U18 and U20 level have consistently been the weakest Aussie side, with no local developed U20s last year and probably none this year either.

I've seen some ludicrous stats today on facebook where people have written "10 of Force's starting 15 are born and bred" when in reality 0 of them are WA born and only 3 are WA bred (in the junior pathway sense).

Perspective is important.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Have they produced more local talent per year of operation or collectively? Because the Rebels are a younger franchise.

The Rebels' first batch of kids who've gone completely through their development pipeline are U20 aged, the Force's are almost mid-20s. Of course you'd expect to see more of them playing Super rugby.

When we're lauding development it's also worth realising the Force at U18 and U20 level have consistently been the weakest Aussie side, with no local developed U20s last year and probably none this year either.

I've seen some ludicrous stats today on facebook where people have written "10 of Force's starting 15 are born and bred" when in reality 0 of them are WA born and only 3 are WA bred (in the junior pathway sense).

Perspective is important.

No one is born in Perth.

 

[KiwiM]

yeah. the underlying current is that they hate playing derbies because they are hard and NZ teams smash each other up, whilst you can just have a training run in the other conferences and get a home final. Jamie Joseph was a special for espousing this particular view.

NZ derbies generate more $. Well that is relative isn't it? Again NZ as a whole generates the least $.

I think your quoted article sums it up perfectly. Happy to take Japanese money but if they don't play rugby to a standard that NZ is happy with then you're gone. But in the meantime we'll cut a few foreign teams to get NZ teams a better chance of making finals with less travel and different time zones so our broadcaster sky will be happy. win-win.

If NZ thinks the other conferences are soft and there are too many time zones surely the logical conclusion for them play more games against NZ opposition?

I think Tew was speaking from a SANZAAR point of view with the comment to the Japanese.

There's really not going to be much less travel with this new deal for nz teams. They'll play 8 out of conference games instead of currently 9 out of conference games. And one of those 4 'Australian' conference games for NZ teams will be in Japan in alternate years.

I think the point is the competition was lacking integrity and was overly complex. Let's take last year for example. The Brumbies got a home final but got bugger all people to it, I think a large part of that was people could see that the Brumbies were not playing a level befitting a home final. They'd just been pumped by 40 points in Auckland by the bottom of the NZ Conference Blues 2 weeks earlier. Similarly the Stormers had not played an NZ team all season but got a home final and then got pumped 61-20 by the Chiefs in the quarter final.

 

[Benaud]

The r

So how long until we're down to 3 Super Rugby teams?

The ARU were handing out this document at the press conference apparently. Pretty clear it's all about the Wallabies for the ARU, and if this is the justification for going back to 4 teams then the same reasoning gets you to 3.

Reverting back to 3 teams, and the original Super 12 model with the same teams we had from 95-05 looks inevitable.

 

[Dave Beat]

Dave, I really admire your loyalty and commitment to the SS and the Marlins, but what is happening with those organisations will have negligible effect on the 100,000s of Super fans around the country.

?? Maybe / Maybe Not ??

BR - that is basically saying ARU only has to worry about the top of the tree and doesn't need to care about how skinny and frail the trunk is. I've seen enough of your posts to understand you do care about what is coming through and that you understand the importance of ensuring the cattle keep coming.



- If each Premier Club Australia wide works on Grass Roots which results in more kids having fun - that may result in more players.
- And with out those organisations rugby would not be on FTA, at least it is an organisation that is bringing rugby through a media channel that our governing body can't do.

I'm not saying SS is is responsible, the ARU are the ones that should be responsible - I started another thread ARU / Australian Rugby as a polite why of saying ARU has lost sight of Australian Rugby.

Whether it be rugby in WA, or rugby in VIC - i have seen some good kids come out of their nursery, and if it was allowed to develop with the ARU focusing on grass roots - who knows. Unfortunately I don't know enough about comps in other states to be as vocal about it - but i can assure people i support their comps and the role they play in development.

 

[Scooter]

A very sad day for Australian rugby. A step backwards.

 

[zer0]

IMO you are near to the money in lending some resources. But not players - coaches to the Aus franchises. That would make the biggest difference and likely improvement in our conference.

Maybe. Paul Feeney looks to have helped work wonders at the Stormers in a short space of time. However, South Africa does have a stronger/better grassroots system than Australia. So I'm not sure if Australian teams would get the same timely results as the Stormers have got.

 

[Twoilms]

Linky link link

Bill Pulver may yet be sacked/requested to stand down. Though seems unlikely.

 

[fatprop]

Because the South Africans didn't want to have to change planes (no direct flight).
Of course the Japanese are always travelling, including to SA.

Presumably Sing games will get cut to 2 under the new format.

But aren't the Japan games linked to their general tour?

So the Japan flight is either via Aus or NZ

 

[NTT]

If its purely a financial decision then surely the money pit that is the Rebels gets the boot. The ARU and the private owners, thats 2 income sources, continue to throw good money after bad at this pipedream that Melbourne will become a Rugby state. The Storm have won premierships yet still struggle to crack a mention in Melbourne. Add in the competition for sports dollars and fans from an already saturated market and the Rebels will always be a minor player in this market. If the ARU continue to back this farcical pipedream then they have rocks in their heads.
The money saved by cutting the Force will soon disappear into the Melbourne money pit. Grassroots will be no better off as the money earmarked will be used to prop up the loss making Rebels. The Wallabies will be no better off as they have less competition for jerseys. The ARU will be no better off as disillusioned fans spend there money elsewhere. Fox sports who pay for the competition now have 2 bargaining chips to hurt the future negotiations with the ARU, being less content and the ARU ignoring what the broadcasters wanted. Another disillusioned party in the collateral damage of this situation. Kids will play other sports, its guaranteed. Listen to Hodgo after yesterday's game.
Adding the Rebels has been a disaster. Financialy it is cactus. It has diluted the playing stocks. 99% of Melbourne doesn't care they are there, it is AFL territory and always will be. The ARU know this, thats why they hastily put together the subsidies package for the new owner just to offload the thing. The owner is still losing money. The ARU is still throwing money at it.
Yet, it will most likely be the Force who go. After being self sustaining for most of its existance mind you. To get a fraction of the assistance Melbourne has received required us to sell the whole dam farm to the ARU. We have our academy and pathways sorted out. The Future Force is privately funded and has started to produce, we have been to 2 of the 3 NRC finals and even won it once. The WA government has invested $135 million in infrastructure support. They even sponsored the Force to guarantee financial viability. Or in laymans terms, met the criteria set by the ARU. The criteria that was always in place. Financial viability and tangible growth in playing stocks.
But now the goalposts have been shifted by the ARU. They are making secret backroom deals without the knowledge of some board members. They have chosen to hurt Rugby Union in Australia despite the ARUs own criteria to which they are held, to grow the game. We have been reduced to a laughing stock by our competitors who dictate to us with no resistance. Our governing body hides behind others when making "bold" decisions.
The ARU are a joke. They have driven rugby into the ground. They have damaged any chance of becoming a respected sport in places where others rule. Their strategic plan consists of building themselves a new bunker to hide in and sabotaging their own growth.
The game they play in heaven has now turned to hell. Thankyou "Australian Rugby Union". Thanks for nothing.

 

[Jon]

I think the Force didn't necessarily sign Foley as a coach either. I think something happened where he was signed to be a coaching director or some such, but ended up becoming head coach when some other deal fell away and time ran out.

I dunno if other Force people on the forum can clarify this for me?

that's right, he was meant to have a head coach, an attack, defence, forwards and backs coach under him - although you would imagine he would have taken on the forwards and scrum.

but the money ran out. we lost emirates and then we were never able to set up the coaching team as planned. there is an argument that foley never got to do the job he was employed to do. but at the end of the day the results meant he had to go.

 

[Ignoto]

Tell you what, i find it hard to imagine how the Rebels would come out on top against the Force in many factors. Force have a bigger supporter base, produced more local talent, have the same success rate and are even revolutionizing the ownership game. Im 100% interested to see what justifies cutting them. What a horrible week for Aussie rugby.

I'd be interested to know what was said behind closed doors from the players. The Force have had a HUGE problem attracting both talent and coaching staff over there. Established players on the East coast have to do a massive lift and shift of their family and life to play in Perth. That's also not taking into account how much time they will be away due to the huge time of travel they have to do.

From attracting players to the game, retaining Melbourne is more appealing to the younger stars who want a city with everything without compromising anything.

 

[NTT]

Have they produced more local talent per year of operation or collectively? Because the Rebels are a younger franchise.

The Rebels' first batch of kids who've gone completely through their development pipeline are U20 aged, the Force's are almost mid-20s. Of course you'd expect to see more of them playing Super rugby.

When we're lauding development it's also worth realising the Force at U18 and U20 level have consistently been the weakest Aussie side, with no local developed U20s last year and probably none this year either.

I've seen some ludicrous stats today on facebook where people have written "10 of Force's starting 15 are born and bred" when in reality 0 of them are WA born and only 3 are WA bred (in the junior pathway sense).

Perspective is important.

I feel stupider for having read this. Clutching at straws gets us nowhere.

 

[RedsHappy]

Linky link link

Bill Pulver may yet be sacked/requested to stand down. Though seems unlikely.

Very amusing that the ARU Chair, in identifying Pulver's 'extraordinary' efforts, can only particularise his achievements in improving 'international relationships' in the Southern Hemisphere where such were 'badly burned' before his arrival.

These are the 'newly positive' relationships that have given us, under Pulver, the disastrous S18 format (that the ARU at the time loudly self-praised) and now the 'new' format wherein the ARU has conceded, indeed it turns out volunteered, a full Super team to depart and yet seemingly gained zero in return other than a new brotherhood with the Sunwolves.

Clearly the threshold by which excellence of executive performance is judged within the unique confines of the ARU is not worryingly high. Not likely to cause any undue stress, or unpleasant pressures.

 

[amirite]

I feel stupider for having read this. Clutching at straws gets us nowhere.

Thanks mate. Was anything I said incorrect?

If people are going to blow the 'we develop players' trumpet it's got to be substantiated.

No one is born in Perth.

Doubtful, but either way the larger point stands.

 

[Rebels3]

Thanks mate. Was anything I said incorrect?

If people are going to blow the 'we develop players' trumpet it's got to be substantiated.


Doubtful, but either way the larger point stands.

Amirite try not engage in the petty mudslinging going around, what you put was a perfectly reasonable post which many are simply refusing to acknowledge. Unfortunately from both sides people are blinded through passion which means they lose the ability to look at things from both perspectives. The thing is both teams, give or take, haven't got much between them when it comes to finances, pathways, crowds, high end performance, etc. There is a lot of informative opinions going around without much if any substance to the argument other than 'just cause'. For every superior Rebels u20s team, there is a superior WA junior gold cup team. For every high end Force result in 2017, there is a high end Rebels result in 2016/2015. For every financial dollars committed to the Rebels, there is considerably more expenses for the Force, eg. travelling to and from Perth, no direct flights to Japan and Argentina, etc, team ahving to be accommodated and leave for venue a day earlier. For every Sean McMahon, Sefa Naivalu, Toby Smith, James Hansen and Reece Hodge there is a DHP, Chance Peni, Jonno Lance, Ben McCalman and Ryan Louwren's. People just don't want to critically analyse the situation, they just want to critically comment.

Hopefully whoever is selected as the fortunate party to progress their journey, they prosper in the future for the sake of Rugby moving forward. Its just the passion of some that is blinding

 

[Dave Beat]

If its purely a financial decision then surely the money pit that is the Rebels gets the boot.

NTT ^^^^^ man that is a little unfair (I do understand your reasoning), I hope each franchise supports each other here - in war, in a game, your team mates help out.

In no way am i having a crack at you - don't sweat it, we can all point fingers - NSW has the biggest player base in the country and yet we are struggling to win a game, do we deserve our position in the 5.

Who has let us down here is the ARU - that simple, they have taken their eyes off where they need to be, and yeah I'm disappointed in them and hold them accountable to a certain degree.