Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dan54]

And yet earlier you were unhappy with guarantee of finals games and home games?

I dont have a problem at many levels with a "championship" style series.

Mate I just making up scenarios for the future in the response to those saying Australia should have their own comp without any NZ involvement, so that's just a suggestion for a NZ comp. I not saying it great, but I thinking of way for new comps to work if as a reasonable number seem to be suggesting that Aus go it alone. The style comp I mentioned is just one that popped into head and I added the SA bit at end as I would like NZ teams to keep playing SA.
I suggesting maybe 2 separate comps for NZ and SA up to a point and then perhaps champions or top 2-3 from each comp can playoff in another quick comp, similar to what soccer etc does in Europe The other advantage would be, that there would be interest in each other's comps and make it a bit more appealing to TVs in both countries. It allows Australia to go it's own way, and they won't have to fit in with anyone else?
Mate just random thoughts, I will have a lot more yet, with no rugby to watch.

 

[Dan54]

And yet earlier you were unhappy with guarantee of finals games and home games?

I dont have a problem at many levels with a "championship" style series.

I have never been that upset with guaranteed finals etc, it a little unfair, but no comp is absolutely fair and best team generallt wins anyway.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think RA have 3 options:

1) Move to a national club competition (no foreign teams) as our primary tier of professional rugby beneath the Wallabies, with some limited provincial rugby (or state of origin) on top of it. Sydney and Brisbane clubs that are able to meet certain criteria would make up most of the teams. I think with this option we'd definitely have to open up Wallabies selection to all overseas based players as the money available wouldn't be able to retain many test level players.

2) Partner with Twiggy Forrest to use our current 5 professional teams as the basis of a new competition (mostly domestic, maybe with a team from Fiji and a combined Samoa/Tonga team) replacing GRR and Super Rugby, and run more independently (RA can focus on grassroots and national teams). I think there would need to be at least 8 teams for a meaningful competition and that this option would require Wallabies selection to be opened up at least a little more to overseas based players as the wages won't be enough for top stars.

3) Reduce our high performance professional teams to 3 (or potentially even 2), which could play in a further contracted Super Rugby competition. This may allow Wallabies selection criteria to stay the same as it is now, and perhaps a full season, semi-professional National Club competition could develop beneath it.

I think the order of likelihood is 3, 2, 1 but I'd prefer the 2nd option.

If article posted in west Australian on force thread represents twiggy and Rapid rugby’s views option 2 and rapid rugby/ force is dead to me. I think option 1 highly probable.

 

[hoggy]

I think RA have 3 options:

1) Move to a national club competition (no foreign teams) as our primary tier of professional rugby beneath the Wallabies, with some limited provincial rugby (or state of origin) on top of it. Sydney and Brisbane clubs that are able to meet certain criteria would make up most of the teams. I think with this option we'd definitely have to open up Wallabies selection to all overseas based players as the money available wouldn't be able to retain many test level players.

2) Partner with Twiggy Forrest to use our current 5 professional teams as the basis of a new competition (mostly domestic, maybe with a team from Fiji and a combined Samoa/Tonga team) replacing GRR and Super Rugby, and run more independently (RA can focus on grassroots and national teams). I think there would need to be at least 8 teams for a meaningful competition and that this option would require Wallabies selection to be opened up at least a little more to overseas based players as the wages won't be enough for top stars.

3) Reduce our high performance professional teams to 3 (or potentially even 2), which could play in a further contracted Super Rugby competition. This may allow Wallabies selection criteria to stay the same as it is now, and perhaps a full season, semi-professional National Club competition could develop beneath it.

I think the order of likelihood is 3, 2, 1 but I'd prefer the 2nd option.

I think option 3 is what the RA will choose, it gives them a get out card to cut the Rebels, and they can continue with Super rugby, the issue being it is the RA who have never wanted to change things the current set-up accommodates the self-interest that controls the game in this country.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think option 3 is what the RA will choose, it gives them a get out card to cut the Rebels, and they can continue with Super rugby, the issue being it is the RA who have never wanted to change things the current set-up accommodates the self-interest that controls the game in this country.

Choosing up option 3 is just helping to speed up the complete destruction of Oz interest in super rugby...either way Super Rugby is on life support. RA could actually show leadership and accept this and pull the pin or just struggle on trying to keep it alive as long as possible but fact is Super Rugby has a terminal illness (called no one wants it) that can't be cured and where only prolonging the inevitable.

RIP Super Rugby.

 

[Omar Comin']

Choosing up option 3 is just helping to speed up the complete destruction of Oz interest in super rugby.either way Super Rugby is on life support. RA could actually show leadership and accept this and pull the pin or just struggle on trying to keep it alive as long as possible but fact is Super Rugby has a terminal illness (called no one wants it) that can't be cured and where only prolonging the inevitable.

RIP Super Rugby.

I think the one positive of a further reduced Super Rugby is that it would provide a bit more air for a national club comp to develop beneath the high performance level. I'm personally pretty skeptical of club rugby ever being the primary vehicle for elite rugby in this country (outside of the Wallabies), but I think a semi-professional national club competition with 12 teams or so could be pretty good and develop a bigger audience than the Shute Shield and Hospital Cup do now.

 

[Lindommer]

When considering what form a new pro rugby comp in Australia might look like, it'd be informative to look around and check what country has done things well. I often muse at the success of Irish rugby in the professional era. If the years since the war are broken up into pre- and post-professional eras, ie, before and after the RWC in late 1995, it's illuminating to compare the successes of Ireland compared to Wales. From 1947 to 95 Ireland won eight 5 Nations titles while Wales won 12 (shared titles counted as one). Come pro rugby, Ireland have won the 5/6 Nations four times compared to Wales's five.

But it's the level below which paints a picture which may be helpful to us in Oz. Ireland and Wales both have four pro sides (I'm ignoring the Celtic Warriors one season existence for the sake of simplicity) and yet Irish sides have won the major European competition seven times as well as appearing in four losing finals. Wales? One miserable finals appearance when Swansea lost the first Heineken Cup final in 1996 in a weakened competition with no English or Scottish clubs. The two countries have similar playing numbers, 22,400 Welsh v 25,400 Irish, why is Ireland so much better than Wales in professional club rugby? Irish rugby has to compete with the two variants of Gaelic games as well as soccer, although I'll admit soccer in Wales is much stronger than in Ireland. What is Ireland doing well at the club level we could copy?

Discuss.

 

[Dan54]

Just on a slightly different theme, I just got quite excited, was watching "Isolation Nation" a NZ TV programme that has been spawned because of lockdown, just a rugby players thing with Izzy Dagg etc, and as they went around talking to different players and saw what they doing for skills etc, Aaron Smith was asked if there any plans being chatted about if there no Tests this years, (and as Smith a senior AB he in talks with players assoc etc all the time) and he mentioned how good it would be to play Mitre 10 cup for the 'Tu' , and then mentioned that most NZ players from Japanese comp were hanging out in NZ and looking for games, mentioned playing in a backline with him at 9, Cruden at 10,Laumape 12, with the likes of Jackson Hemopo etc back in forwards, and imagine how that would look around the country, Kierin Read at Counties , BB and JB at the Naki!!
Sorry fellas do I want to see ABs play Wallabies again (though I miss the Bok test) or see some real proper provincial rugby again??? I not being rude fellas, but you would have NRC!! Saffa's would have proper Currie Cup!!!! Even just for one year it something to salivate about!!

 

[dru]

Just on a slightly different theme, I just got quite excited, was watching "Isolation Nation" a NZ TV programme that has been spawned because of lockdown, just a rugby players thing with Izzy Dagg etc, and as they went around talking to different players and saw what they doing for skills etc, Aaron Smith was asked if there any plans being chatted about if there no Tests this years, (and as Smith a senior AB he in talks with players assoc etc all the time) and he mentioned how good it would be to play Mitre 10 cup for the 'Tu' , and then mentioned that most NZ players from Japanese comp were hanging out in NZ and looking for games, mentioned playing in a backline with him at 9, Cruden at 10,Laumape 12, with the likes of Jackson Hemopo etc back in forwards, and imagine how that would look around the country, Kierin Read at Counties , BB and JB at the Naki!!
Sorry fellas do I want to see ABs play Wallabies again (though I miss the Bok test) or see some real proper provincial rugby again??? I not being rude fellas, but you would have NRC!! Saffa's would have proper Currie Cup!!!! Even just for one year it something to salivate about!!

Dan, I think that would be fabulous. Might even dial in to the broadcasts if they make it here. I wish the NZ rugby players sincerely the best through this period.

I suspect you’ll have nothing crossing international boundaries as long as we do. Though if NZ “eradicate” policy works life inside NZ will get more normal much more quickly than here. Make the best of it.

 

[Micheal]

Watching the Bledisloe from 2010 on RA's facebook now -- games like this are few and far between these days. Instict tells me that these blokes would wipe the floor with the current mob, but my brain suggest that's not correct. Thoughts?

 

[Joe King]

I think RA have 3 options:

1) Move to a national club competition (no foreign teams) as our primary tier of professional rugby beneath the Wallabies, with some limited provincial rugby (or state of origin) on top of it. Sydney and Brisbane clubs that are able to meet certain criteria would make up most of the teams. I think with this option we'd definitely have to open up Wallabies selection to all overseas based players as the money available wouldn't be able to retain many test level players.

2) Partner with Twiggy Forrest to use our current 5 professional teams as the basis of a new competition (mostly domestic, maybe with a team from Fiji and a combined Samoa/Tonga team) replacing GRR and Super Rugby, and run more independently (RA can focus on grassroots and national teams). I think there would need to be at least 8 teams for a meaningful competition and that this option would require Wallabies selection to be opened up at least a little more to overseas based players as the wages won't be enough for top stars.

3) Reduce our high performance professional teams to 3 (or potentially even 2), which could play in a further contracted Super Rugby competition. This may allow Wallabies selection criteria to stay the same as it is now, and perhaps a full season, semi-professional National Club competition could develop beneath it.

I think the order of likelihood is 3, 2, 1 but I'd prefer the 2nd option.

Really helpful post.

One variation on 3 might be if (miraculously) the NZRU was open to picking some test players from Australian teams, if only in a moderate way.

RA could concentrate Aussie players into the three traditional teams: Reds, Brumbies, Waratahs. But then enter a joint venture with NZR for the Rebels and the Force, which would allow those teams to have a certain amount of NZ players, but giving NZR a certain amount of control over their test (and fringe-test) players in those teams in terms of conditioning and rest.

This idea might also make a TT comp more appealing to NZ if Australia could field 5 competitive teams.

NZR want to keep their players at home, eligible and condition-ready for the AB's, but they can't do that on their own (once the boarders open). They may be more excited about Japan in this regard, but this kind of TT option would still give NZR control of their players in a local comp and in sync with the AB's playing schedule.

Australia has the potential market but not the depth of players to sustain more than 3-4 teams if playing in a comp with NZ. This idea would tap into the Australian market by making all teams similarly competitive and interesting for viewers to watch.

Who knows, it might lead to a greater trust between RA and NZR and further growth into the Australia market, which would bring in more revenue for both countries. Other teams from Japan and the PI's are not out of the question.

Further to this, an even TT competition would also enhance the Bledisloe Cup.

 

[dru]

RA could concentrate Aussie players into the three traditional teams: Reds, Brumbies, Waratahs.

I stopped here.

You need a national comp under that and some better justification behind the three chosen - on an across Aus fan basis. Or we stop pretending rugby is a national sport.

 

[wamberal]

Or we stop pretending rugby is a national sport.

Reality is reality. By some narrow definitions we are a national sport. Our game is played throughout this nation. We have a national team playing an important international sport. A variant of our game is an Olympic sport. We have World Cups.


But, we do not have a viable popular national competition, and unlike most recognised national sports, we have virtually nothing on FTA.



That is not likely to change soon, if ever.

 

[hoggy]

Reality is reality. By some narrow definitions we are a national sport. Our game is played throughout this nation. We have a national team playing an important international sport. A variant of our game is an Olympic sport. We have World Cups.


But, we do not have a viable popular national competition, and unlike most recognised national sports, we have virtually nothing on FTA.



That is not likely to change soon, if ever.

Then surely this is a perfect time to address those two issues which everyone agrees, is fundamentally holding the game back in this country.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

he mentioned how good it would be to play Mitre 10 cup for the 'Tu' , and then mentioned that most NZ players from Japanese comp were hanging out in NZ and looking for games, mentioned playing in a backline with him at 9, Cruden at 10,Laumape 12, with the likes of Jackson Hemopo etc back in forwards, and imagine how that would look around the country, Kierin Read at Counties , BB and JB at the Naki!!

#living_in_denial

 

[wamberal]

Then surely this is a perfect time to address those two issues which everyone agrees, is fundamentally holding the game back in this country.

It would be nice to think that this can happen. Not sure this is a perfect time, though. A perfect time was when the ARC was floated. Where was all the support back then? We had a chance to create something, but we fluffed it big time. Maybe it was flawed, but it was a national competition on FTA.

 

[Joe King]

I stopped here.

You need a national comp under that and some better justification behind the three chosen - on an across Aus fan basis. Or we stop pretending rugby is a national sport.

An alternative might be for NZR to pick test players from any Aussie team. However, I tried to suggest a more moderate approach so they could feel confident in the idea without risking as much.

But you're right. My justification for which teams needs to be better. I guess I was mainly thinking about how we can keep the Rebels, rather than getting rid of them (assuming they would be the team to go), and as a way of bringing the Force back. So my heart was in the right place

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Bite the bullet and amend the Giteau law to be a mix of Test and Super caps. Lower the minimum number of Tests as long as they've played X number of Super games for current/past (recent past) Wallabies who either currently are or opt to in the near future take up contract overseas. Something like 30 Tests and 50 Super Rugby caps.

For players without Test Caps specify the need to have say U20s caps for Aus and 60-70 Super caps are needed to remain eligible.

Then, look to emulate Major League Rugby by establishing a single entity concern that calls for bids from interested parties that meet a determined criteria in terms of finances etc. Look to award somewhere between 8-10 licences. Each successful bid would be awarded a voting stake in the league alongside RA. Majority vote wins with everyone having to agree to accept the result regardless of whether they voted in favour or not.

All operational costs would be run via the central office with only things like sponsorship, gameday experience and gate being the responsibility of the bids. The operational costs would involve player salaries, travel, accommodation, meals etc. This would be ideally by a prospective TV deal. But would also be supplemented initially by the licence fee and an annual cash call much like MLR.

 

[wamberal]

The poster called "half" used to keep telling us that he knew of lots of potential investors. As for me, I am teensy bit sceptical. Particularly under current conditions, the market is down, business is stagnating at best.


It would be nice if somebody can name some names. Twiggy, of course. Maybe the Buildcorp people.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The poster called "half" used to keep telling us that he knew of lots of potential investors. As for me, I am teensy bit sceptical. Particularly under current conditions, the market is down, business is stagnating at best.


It would be nice if somebody can name some names. Twiggy, of course. Maybe the Buildcorp people.

Lang Walker is apparently a Rugby fan. As are the guys behind the F45 franchise. They already have two teams in MLR. That's potentially four.