Where to for Super Rugby?

[hoggy]

I'd be all for including the Fijian and Samoan GRR teams. But I'd be less enthused about the South African / Malaysian team, Hong Kong and the China Lions/Bay of Plenty. Maybe keep Hong Kong as at least they have a real union and rugby community, but I don't think they'd be much of a draw.

My ideal would be something like:

Waratahs, Reds, Brumbies, Rebels, Force, Fiji, Samoa/Pacific Island Warriors, plus a new Western Sydney team.

I would go close to that, 8 teams could be realistic, I would only differ regards Samoa/Pacific, just don't think the economics of that would work, Definitely a 2nd NSW team, maybe tender out for the 8th team, what about a 2nd Queensland team.

The important thing would be making sure the economics of the thing are realistic, no $million Wallaby salaries, The Wallabies run as a separate entity with match payments.

 

[Forcefield]

Why would the three you mention stop tapping into Sydney and Brisbane for talent. Don't get me wrong. I'd very much like to see what you've suggested. We could do Sydney, NSW Country and Newcastle. I suggest Newcastle because at least from my experience in regards to the raft of family that live in country NSW 'Newcastle isn't really country'. But how would you ensure things were even.

Fair point. There would always be tapping in a free market, but not to the current extent. Personally, I think WA would be close to self-sufficient at that kind of level. Otherwise teams like the Waratahs wouldn't be nabbing our U20s like McDonald or Tizzano. Or the Reds with Jack Hardy. The Brumbies always seem to produce a lot of their own talent. Yes, at Super level there is a lot of taking the cream, but in a diluted competition they'd be fine. My biggest worry would be thst two Queensland teams would be too strong based on my understanding of recent school aged results.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Fair point. There would always be tapping in a free market, but not to the current extent. Personally, I think WA would be close to self-sufficient at that kind of level. Otherwise teams like the Waratahs wouldn't be nabbing our U20s like McDonald or Tizzano. Or the Reds with Jack Hardy. The Brumbies always seem to produce a lot of their own talent. Yes, at Super level there is a lot of taking the cream, but in a diluted competition they'd be fine. My biggest worry would be thst two Queensland teams would be too strong based on my understanding of recent school aged results.

NSW1 has won the last two Schools Championships and 6 of the last 10 with ACT winning in 2017, NSW 2 in 2016, Qld 1 in 2011 and Qldin 2010. You might be thinking of the U19 NRC.

 

[dru]

I tend to think we'll refine our treatment of the virus well before we get a viable vaccine in place. So we're looking at around 12 months of having to focus internally at the least.

Agree, but it means borders at least semi-closed until we have a vaccine.

My point here is that we have little choice but to chase domestic, even if in the long term it is not our chosen path.

Very few virologists or epidimologists are predicting a vaccine earlier than 18 months.

 

[Forcefield]

NSW1 has won the last two Schools Championships and 6 of the last 10 with ACT winning in 2017, NSW 2 in 2016, Qld 1 in 2011 and Qldin 2010. You might be thinking of the U19 NRC.

Haha. That's why I put the understanding bit in. Too lazy to check. For some reason I thought the two QLD sides were far stronger than the others in the last few years. Must have a terrible memory or not paying enough attention. I guess that just supports 3 NSW teams 2 QLD and one from the rest of us for an even 8. Now I know someone will jump down my throat about tribalism, geographic stuff with Sydney and all that but I don't see a better option. If you wanted to spice things up a bit you could eventually look at partnerships that could lead to future expansion such as some Pacific Island links to NSW clubs. Hong Kong to the ACT, Singapore to Perth or something like that.

 

[kiap]

NSW1 has won the last two Schools Championships and 6 of the last 10

I think, like Super Rugby, the Schools Championship has lost relevance with top players not involved. It's been supplanted by the academies.

Speaking of soup, an interesting piece by Geerob tonight:

Rugby needs change but timing is off in siege of Castle​

​

By Georgina Robinson​

Updated April 5, 2020 — 6.25pm​

​

The coronavirus pandemic has laid bare Australian rugby's structural frailties.​

​

The economic cost of continuing with Super Rugby, a competition long dead in the hearts and minds of Australian fans, to honour an historic southern-hemisphere alliance is irresponsible.​

​

Trying to keep pace with the overseas player markets of England, France and Japan was sending the game broke well before the Ruby Princess docked in Sydney Harbour.​

​

Similar to the follies exposed at the heart of the NRL's business model, rugby has been spending too much money on footballers and sports administrators. In rugby's case, the extra crime is that good money has been thrown after bad, in support of a competition that can no longer deliver the revenue needed to keep the cycle going.​

​

But Rugby Australia chief executive Raelene Castle was only the latest administrator who lacked the courage to tackle this most fundamental of problems head-on.​

​

She and her board had agreed to stick with Super Rugby for another five years. Her predecessor, Bill Pulver, signed Australia up to an 18-team, two conference model that will go down as the single worst two years of Super Rugby in history …​

​

Read more: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...s-off-in-siege-of-castle-20200405-p54h9k.html​

 

[Joe King]

If we could go domestic with our best players at home, I would go with:

Brumbies
Rebels
Force
Sydney
Brisbane
NSW Country
Qld Country

Similar to the NRC but with Super Rugby teams substituted. If the boarders are open, then teams from the PI's could be added if viable. I would even revisit the idea of a Fijian team playing out of Western Sydney - if it was helpful to them.

This would then lead into a state of origin style series between:

Qld Reds
NSW Waratahs
Best of the rest of Oz

 

[Rebels3]

If we could go domestic with our best players at home, I would go with:

Brumbies
Rebels
Force
Sydney
Brisbane
NSW Country
Qld Country

Similar to the NRC but with Super Rugby teams substituted. If the boarders are open, then teams from the PI's could be added if viable. I would even revisit the idea of a Fijian team playing out of Western Sydney - if it was helpful to them.

This would then lead into a state of origin style series between:

Qld Reds
NSW Waratahs
Best of the rest of Oz

I don’t think the country ideas would work for a longer season. Players wouldn’t appreciate been moved about and no ‘family’ men would sign for the team. Especially if the wages are going to be reduced. It’s a good idea in theory but wouldn’t work. I’d rather lean towards a Newcastle team with the odd game from them played in the bush.

I really like the idea of islander players been integrated into the teams but only if they don’t become project players and are exploited and only if beyond 5 domestic teams were included.

 

[Omar Comin']

This would then lead into a state of origin style series between:

Qld Reds
NSW Waratahs
Best of the rest of Oz

The best of the rest would get destroyed and probably not gain a whole lot of support. The vast majority of players that are good enough would be eligible for NSW or QLD through some criteria, and for those few that aren't there could be a system where the other states are aligned with either NSW or QLD (I think this is better than ever having some Wallabies guys not able to play in it).

 

[Omar Comin']

I would go close to that, 8 teams could be realistic, I would only differ regards Samoa/Pacific, just don't think the economics of that would work, Definitely a 2nd NSW team, maybe tender out for the 8th team, what about a 2nd Queensland team.

The important thing would be making sure the economics of the thing are realistic, no $million Wallaby salaries, The Wallabies run as a separate entity with match payments.

I agree with this, I only included the Samoa/Pacific team because Kagifa Samoa are already in GRR, so maybe Twiggy or someone else is already willing to prop this team up. They could primarily be based in Australia or NZ and just take 1 or 2 home games to the islands.

 

[Rebels3]

The best of the rest would get destroyed and probably not gain a whole lot of support. The vast majority of players that are good enough would be eligible for NSW or QLD through some criteria, and for those few that aren't there could be a system where the other states are aligned with either NSW or QLD (I think this is better than ever having some Wallabies guys not able to play in it).

I don’t particularly like the idea of ‘the rest’ it’s kinda a token team, however this is the best team I could think of from WA and VIC. Not sure where ACT would sit in this. League SOO just counts them as NSW eligible.

Combined WA/VIC

1 Hepburn (Exeter) WA
2 Uelese (Rebels) VIC
3 Longbottom (Force) WA
4 Douglas (Brumbies) VIC
5 RHP (Rebels) WA
6 Valetini (Brumbies) VIC
7 Hardwick (Rebels) WA
8 Samu (Brumbies) VIC
9 McDonald (Tahs) WA
10 CLL (Japan) VIC
11 Naivalu (Stade Francais) VIC
12 Godwin (Connacht) WA
13 Holmes (Toulouse) WA
14 Paisami (Reds) VIC
15 DHP (Rebels) WA

16 Rangi (Rebels) WA
17 Faulkner (Tahs) VIC
18 Cowan (Japan) WA
19 Hosea (Rebels) VIC
20 Tizzano (Tahs) WA
21 Leota (Rebels) VIC
22 Tapuai (Harlequins) VIC
23 Potter (Rebels) VIC

I am sure I have missed plenty

 

[kiap]

^Longbottom at 3, for a start.

But, I agree, SOO is not something for rugby union. We have a World Cup, etc, instead.

 

[Rebels3]

^Longbottom at 3, for a start.

But, I agree, SOO is not something for rugby union. We have a World Cup, etc, instead.

I was more thinking I need Kyle Godwin in at 12/13. Forgot about him

The backrow and backline would more than hold their own against NSW or QLD. Front row stocks not to shabby either

 

[dru]

Basically we look to SOO because it forms rep teams behind the national team and it is the only example we have. ofc SOO generates huge tribalism which my suggestion may not.

The idea is to distill the talent into high performing teams that might even proceed to a Super style knock out "Champion's Cup.

I'm thinking leave it in the hands of the National coaching and selection team. Split the selection panel in two, take the WBs forward coach and back coach and open them as HC of the rep teams. For want of anything better, let's call them Australia Emus and Australia Magpies.

Forward coach first picks combinations he wants to work on in the Wallaby pack. Backs coach picks selections he wants to work on in the Wallaby back line. Rennie and Johnson step in if there are alternates they want worked on. You would have Johnson and Rennie guiding so that hopefully the game plan and strategies are relatively consistent with WB intentions.

While domestic only is happening then home and away. If a Champions cup comes into being, off they go.

Also opens some pathways for the assistant coaches.

 

[VassMan]

I like the SoO idea as it keeps the brand's of the Reds and Tahs going while allowing Qld and NSW to have multiple teams in the hypothetical national domestic comp. I wouldn't have the best of the rest team, just keep it at the two and they'll work out a connection to one of the teams.

 

[Omar Comin']

I don’t particularly like the idea of ‘the rest’ it’s kinda a token team, however this is the best team I could think of from WA and VIC. Not sure where ACT would sit in this. League SOO just counts them as NSW eligible.

Combined WA/VIC

1 Hepburn (Exeter) WA
2 Uelese (Rebels) VIC
3 Longbottom (Force) WA
4 Douglas (Brumbies) VIC
5 RHP (Rebels) WA
6 Valetini (Brumbies) VIC
7 Hardwick (Rebels) WA
8 Samu (Brumbies) VIC
9 McDonald (Tahs) WA
10 CLL (Japan) VIC
11 Naivalu (Stade Francais) VIC
12 Godwin (Connacht) WA
13 Holmes (Toulouse) WA
14 Paisami (Reds) VIC
15 DHP (Rebels) WA

16 Rangi (Rebels) WA
17 Faulkner (Tahs) VIC
18 Cowan (Japan) WA
19 Hosea (Rebels) VIC
20 Tizzano (Tahs) WA
21 Leota (Rebels) VIC
22 Tapuai (Harlequins) VIC
23 Potter (Rebels) VIC

I am sure I have missed plenty

That's a better team than I thought, though half the backline are based overseas so wouldn't be available. And a lot of those guys have also lived and played in either NSW or QLD as well so could still be eligible for a 2 team SOO. And I don't think it would be too much of a problem to come up with some criteria for those few that don't have an obvious connection to either state.

 

[RugbyReg]

why wouldn't Tupou be in the Rest of team? Did all his schooling in NZL?

What's the State of Origin based on? Where they went to senior school?

 

[The Honey Badger]

When considering what form a new pro rugby comp in Australia might look like, it'd be informative to look around and check what country has done things well. I often muse at the success of Irish rugby in the professional era. If the years since the war are broken up into pre- and post-professional eras, ie, before and after the RWC in late 1995, it's illuminating to compare the successes of Ireland compared to Wales. From 1947 to 95 Ireland won eight 5 Nations titles while Wales won 12 (shared titles counted as one). Come pro rugby, Ireland have won the 5/6 Nations four times compared to Wales's five.

But it's the level below which paints a picture which may be helpful to us in Oz. Ireland and Wales both have four pro sides (I'm ignoring the Celtic Warriors one season existence for the sake of simplicity) and yet Irish sides have won the major European competition seven times as well as appearing in four losing finals. Wales? One miserable finals appearance when Swansea lost the first Heineken Cup final in 1996 in a weakened competition with no English or Scottish clubs. The two countries have similar playing numbers, 22,400 Welsh v 25,400 Irish, why is Ireland so much better than Wales in professional club rugby? Irish rugby has to compete with the two variants of Gaelic games as well as soccer, although I'll admit soccer in Wales is much stronger than in Ireland. What is Ireland doing well at the club level we could copy?

Discuss.

Lindommer, Ireland run an ALL IRELAND League with a total of 50 clubs involved (includes Northern Ireland).

There is 10 clubs in each level and there is promotion and relegation between each tier. Division 1A is the top competition and would be the closest they have to our SS or Hospital cup, probably not quite the standard of SS, but this is the comp 1 down from Pro 14 and players will be picked up from here to play for the Professional Provinces. Division 1B is next, then division 2A, 2B & 2C.

Its would seem a good comp and a good way to organise the game in Ireland. But is helped a lot by the close proximity of everything in Ireland. The longest road trip would be Cork to Belfast (say 5 hours), it is still doable.

I seem to remember 3 divisions of Sydney rugby years ago. Could we do something similar in Oz? even a statewide comp would be difficult for the travel involved. I think we are destined to stay with regional zoned based comps.

FWIW, I wouldnt mind seeing a Country North (Tamworth) , Country Central (Orange) and Country South (Wagga) and Newcastle team play involved in some state based comp (maybe SS second grade)

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Lindommer, Ireland run an ALL IRELAND League with a total of 50 clubs involved (includes Northern Ireland).

There is 10 clubs in each level and there is promotion and relegation between each tier. Division 1A is the top competition and would be the closest they have to our SS or Hospital cup, probably not quite the standard of SS, but this is the comp 1 down from Pro 14 and players will be picked up from here to play for the Professional Provinces. Division 1B is next, then division 2A, 2B & 2C.

Its would seem a good comp and a good way to organise the game in Ireland. But is helped a lot by the close proximity of everything in Ireland. The longest road trip would be Cork to Belfast (say 5 hours), it is still doable.

I seem to remember 3 divisions of Sydney rugby years ago. Could we do something similar in Oz? even a statewide comp would be difficult for the travel involved. I think we are destined to stay with regional zoned based comps.

FWIW, I wouldnt mind seeing a Country North (Tamworth) , Country Central (Orange) and Country South (Wagga) and Newcastle team play involved in some state based comp (maybe SS second grade)

Yeah. Ireland has the advantage of geograpghy being much closer than anything we have here. I think the goal should be to expand the current city based competitions by setting up a largely independenet 'Premier' division above the current set up and open up participation to Newcastle, the Illawarra and the Central Coast. With plans put in place to in time bring Penrith back into the fold and add another Sydney based district club to get numbers up to 16. Similar concept with the Brisbane. Might also be a goal to get the likes of SIRU rep squad playing in the ACT comp in time.

 

[kiap]

I like the SoO idea as it keeps the brand's of the Reds and Tahs going while allowing Qld and NSW to have multiple teams in the hypothetical national domestic comp.

Just put the Reds and Tahs in the national comp instead of having (yet another) tier.

Those teams aren't beating the Brumbies at the moment; and when they do, that's great.

It doesn't stop, say, a Western Sydney team entering the competition (the hurdle there is that NSW Rugby are overstretched for reddies - such a team would need wealthy backing + independence, i.e. alongside Sydney Rugby instead of under it).

If you want to have an all-of-NSW rep or origin team (or all-of-Qld) then save it for something like a Lions tour which is the closest thing left at top level to the old-style representive rugby from last century.

TBF, such an origin team in one or two annual games would not likely be much better on-field than the regular Tahs side due to lack of team cohesion.