Where to for Super Rugby?

[Joe King]

Just put the Reds and Tahs in the national comp instead of having (yet another) tier.

Those teams aren't beating the Brumbies at the moment; and when they do, that's great.

It doesn't stop, say, a Western Sydney team entering the competition (the hurdle there is that NSW Rugby are overstretched for reddies - such a team would need wealthy backing + independence, i.e. alongside Sydney Rugby instead of under it).

If you want to have an all-of-NSW rep or origin team (or all-of-Qld) then save it for something like a Lions tour which is the closest thing left at top level to the old-style representive rugby from last century.

TBF, such an origin team in one or two annual games would not likely be much better on-field than the regular Tahs side due to lack of team cohesion.

Yeah, makes sense. Having the Waratahs in a 'NRC' doesn't necessarily prevent them having another team somewhere in NSW, OR forming a NSW origin type team for a special occasion. Ditto with the Reds.

Also, starting with ALL the Super Rugby teams together is probably the best way for the comp to initially gain traction because of the brand names.

 

[Dan54]

Just put the Reds and Tahs in the national comp instead of having (yet another) tier.

Those teams aren't beating the Brumbies at the moment; and when they do, that's great.

It doesn't stop, say, a Western Sydney team entering the competition (the hurdle there is that NSW Rugby are overstretched for reddies - such a team would need wealthy backing + independence, i.e. alongside Sydney Rugby instead of under it).

If you want to have an all-of-NSW rep or origin team (or all-of-Qld) then save it for something like a Lions tour which is the closest thing left at top level to the old-style representive rugby from last century.

TBF, such an origin team in one or two annual games would not likely be much better on-field than the regular Tahs side due to lack of team cohesion.

If you change to a local comp that is one of best ideas I have liked, not sure how it will work, but it worth thinking on.

 

[Dan54]

Interesting to see Bernard Laporte talking about a Club world cup, involving say 6 teams from Super rugby, and here we discussing how we can shrink the game to Aussie only comp? Don't really think much will come of it, but real pleased there are ideas getting thrown around how game may change after virus let's us play again.

 

[Lindommer]

1. What do we want in the future for first class professional rugby?
2. How much money might there be to fund such a competition?
3. What would/should New Zealand's involvement be? Personally, I think NZ have the rugby quality but not the money and/or population.
4. Apart from New Zealand what other non-Australian teams could be included?
5. When should such a competition be conducted?
6. What media involvement would there be? Frankly, I think there's gotta be some form of free-to-air TV. Other than that, Kayo or streaming.

........let's start with some sort of tight geographical grouping, no Saffer or Argentinian teams.

I've thought for a while some sort of Twiggyball is the way to go. What Super Rugby gave us was a too-wide geographical spread resulting in not enough local derbies, which we realised we don't like. As a starting point I'd like to see the five Oz sides + two Pacific teams (we should grab our Pacifika pals before the Kiwis do) + ONE Asian franchise. I'd recommend Hong Kong as it's in a friendly time zone and is a good weekend away for supporters. I'd also suggest Fiji and the other Pacifika team play most of their games in Sydney (Parramatta or St Marys Stadium?) or Brisbane. Only if/when this new format's successful should any sort of expansion be considered, we MUST walk before we run.

If World Rugby wants to develop professional first class rugby in Asia, well, that's up to them, but I'm not keen to have Chinese, Malaysian, Singaporean, Korean, Russian or Japanese involvement. There's fertile ground here for WR (World Rugby) to set up an east Asian competition; however, it's not our job.

Along with a revamped Super Rugby I'm strongly in favour of keeping the NRC going with one twist: Fiji out and the Western Sydney Rams back in. The state RUs have to be strongly committed and involved in the eight teams.

 

[wamberal]

Asia is fertile ground, and it will happily consume an awful lot of fertiliser. I know I am out of date, don't know what I am talking about etc etc, ad infinitum, but I am remain certain that the sport of rugby will not thrive in Asia. Yes there will be pockets of popularity, and times of relative prosperity (like when an Asian country hosts a World Cup).



There are lots of carpetbaggers out there, happy to attract and spend other people's money. It all reminds me a bit of when Deng Xiaoping opened the PRC up to the world. Lots of western entrepreneurs were mesmerised by the sheer potential of the place.. all those people! And they spent an awful lot of money, in most cases lost the lot trying to develop markets for their products.


And I remember when the PLA was going to make rugby a centrepiece of its sporting infrastructure. They asked the NZRU to supply one thousand coaches, allegedly (at no cost I assume).


Rugby was essentially a colonial game, propagated by the British army and civil servants, not to mention the good old Jesuits.


It retains the essence of that colonialism.

 

[dru]

Interesting to see Bernard Laporte talking about a Club world cup, involving say 6 teams from Super rugby, and here we discussing how we can shrink the game to Aussie only comp? Don't really think much will come of it, but real pleased there are ideas getting thrown around how game may change after virus let's us play again.

In the first instance, Dan, we need to learn to live in a SARS-Co2 world. Unless you think she will do otherwise the NZ PM is not going to open borders, at least not without quarantine restrictions, until we are in a post-SARS-Co2 world. Think 12-18 months.

So for now a world club championship sits on the same unicorn that Super does.

Then in a post-SARS-Co2 world Aus rugby must STILL resolve what is good for Aus rugby. Until now NZ has shown exactly nil interest in anything that works for us and it is well time for us to grab that bull by the horns.

During this period of isolation, we are necessarily testing something that can build to a Domestic comp. though I still suspect NZ may reconsider once the reality of isolation hits.

Finally what makes you think that a world club challenge would proceed without Australia whatever happens with Super? This whole Kiwi-centric rugby thinking you continue to push is exactly why we need to cut out of Super.

 

[The Honey Badger]

.

Along with a revamped Super Rugby I'm strongly in favour of keeping the NRC going with one twist: Fiji out and the Western Sydney Rams back in. The state RUs have to be strongly committed and involved in the eight teams.

Agree with most of your post.

Do the Force play at both Super Rugby and NRC? Or do the Spirit live again?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I've thought for a while some sort of Twiggyball is the way to go. What Super Rugby gave us was a too-wide geographical spread resulting in not enough local derbies, which we realised we don't like. As a starting point I'd like to see the five Oz sides + two Pacific teams (we should grab our Pacifika pals before the Kiwis do) + ONE Asian franchise. I'd recommend Hong Kong as it's in a friendly time zone and is a good weekend away for supporters. I'd also suggest Fiji and the other Pacifika team play most of their games in Sydney (Parramatta or St Marys Stadium?) or Brisbane. Only if/when this new format's successful should any sort of expansion be considered, we MUST walk before we run.

If World Rugby wants to develop professional first class rugby in Asia, well, that's up to them, but I'm not keen to have Chinese, Malaysian, Singaporean, Korean, Russian or Japanese involvement. There's fertile ground here for WR (World Rugby) to set up an east Asian competition; however, it's not our job.

Along with a revamped Super Rugby I'm strongly in favour of keeping the NRC going with one twist: Fiji out and the Western Sydney Rams back in. The state RUs have to be strongly committed and involved in the eight teams.

I'd also like to see eligibility broadened allowing for Aussies to play for the HK squad while still being eligible for the Wallabies.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Agree with most of your post.

Do the Force play at both Super Rugby and NRC? Or do the Spirit live again?

Actually. If we were to go down this route we could do away with the NRC and instead introduce what essentially would be a 'reserve' grade competition running alongside it. Similar for a women's comp/

 

[Dan54]

In the first instance, Dan, we need to learn to live in a SARS-Co2 world. Unless you think she will do otherwise the NZ PM is not going to open borders, at least not without quarantine restrictions, until we are in a post-SARS-Co2 world. Think 12-18 months.

So for now a world club championship sits on the same unicorn that Super does.

Then in a post-SARS-Co2 world Aus rugby must STILL resolve what is good for Aus rugby. Until now NZ has shown exactly nil interest in anything that works for us and it is well time for us to grab that bull by the horns.

During this period of isolation, we are necessarily testing something that can build to a Domestic comp. though I still suspect NZ may reconsider once the reality of isolation hits.

Finally what makes you think that a world club challenge would proceed without Australia whatever happens with Super? This whole Kiwi-centric rugby thinking you continue to push is exactly why we need to cut out of Super.

Well to be honest, I probably do push a bit of a kiwi perspective, just as you probably push an Aussie one, I not arguing for or against about World cup, and I did say I thought it unlikely. I wouldn't see Aus not getting into one in future because of no Super, that was just giving ideas of where teams may come from. If Aus had a domestic comp, I would imagine there would be one or 2 teams from here in it too. Why do you think I meant otherwise? We know it won't be next month or year, but everyone is looking in years ahead and I belive we will see a complete rest of rugby around world. Well who do you think Aus rugby should play if noone is looking after themselves? You should probably follow league where Aussie rule, but if Aus wants to be in International rugby, and I believe they do, and most countries want them there, they and perhaps you have to realise that other countries can't or shouldn't ruin their own game just for Aus. I always a little amused with posts that seem to indicate that NZRU are just ruling the roost ot making hard for Australia, and that Aus should get treated as a 3rd world country in rugby. Aus rugby should be (and is in my opinion) big enough to look after itself. It is fairly clear that WR (World Rugby) will make special cases for Aus , but tell me exactly what NZ should be doing? And I can guarantee that NZRU and RA are talking to see how things can be handled.
Have just read a little more about it, and apparently it not thought to be a good time to push for it because of Corona Virus and it is something that will be discussed later, Seem NH clubs were already thinking of a 4 yearly club title anyway, so interesting things obviously on table.

 

[dru]

Well to be honest, I probably do push a bit of a kiwi perspective, just as you probably push an Aussie one,

It is an Australian rugby discussion forum. I would not take the same tone or approach
if I was commenting on as NZ site. But I'm not. And I have no problem whatsoever with a suggestion of Aussie bias.

Right now all decisions, that is ALL decisions needs to be no shades of grey just 100% Australian biased.

 

[Dan54]

It is an Australian rugby discussion forum. I would not take the same tone or approach
if I was commenting on as NZ site. But I'm not. And I have no problem whatsoever with a suggestion of Aussie bias.

Right now all decisions, that is ALL decisions needs to be no shades of grey just 100% Australian biased.

Ok fair enough, but that not called discussions mate that is called lectures. You are correct it is an Australian RUGBY discussion, and I apologise , I never realised it was an Australian ONLY thread. I didn't think I ever went overboard anyway, and would certainly appreciate you telling me what I said in my post that has upset you.
I agree that Aus rugby should be making decisions 100% Aus biased, they should always have done and believe that right or wrong that is what they do. Same as NZRU, SARU, IRRU,WRU etc etc should ALL make decisions biased towards what is good for the game in their country. I will bet everyone of them will have some thoughts towards Aus rugby because it is in all their interests for Aus rugby to stay pertinent as it is for Aus rugby to have other strong rugby nations. It onething Aus rugby has over NRL and AFL , it is an international sport, it is also drawback as you just can't just change everything to suit what is good for only you!
And as I said please let me know what I said in my post that got you riled up.

I will add mate there are plenty in NZ like you who are convinced that 6N rugby care about nothing but themselves and are holding back SH rugby. You are not alone in feeling like a victim easiest thing in the world to do.

 

[Tex]

Ok fair enough, but that not called discussions mate that is called lectures. You are correct it is an Australian RUGBY discussion, and I apologise , I never realised it was an Australian ONLY thread. I didn't think I ever went overboard anyway, and would certainly appreciate you telling me what I said in my post that has upset you.
I agree that Aus rugby should be making decisions 100% Aus biased, they should always have done and believe that right or wrong that is what they do. Same as NZRU, SARU, IRRU,WRU etc etc should ALL make decisions biased towards what is good for the game in their country. I will bet everyone of them will have some thoughts towards Aus rugby because it is in all their interests for Aus rugby to stay pertinent as it is for Aus rugby to have other strong rugby nations. It onething Aus rugby has over NRL and AFL , it is an international sport, it is also drawback as you just can't just change everything to suit what is good for only you!
And as I said please let me know what I said in my post that got you riled up.

I will add mate there are plenty in NZ like you who are convinced that 6N rugby care about nothing but themselves and are holding back SH rugby. You are not alone in feeling like a victim easiest thing in the world to do.

Nah Dan, stick around and push whatever perspective you want. It's a thread about Super Rugby, not australian rugby.

 

[Dan54]

Cheers ta Tex, I honestly thought perhaps I better bugger off. Funny thing is I want Aus rugby to succeed a hell of a lot, as I been involved for so long in it.

 

[RugbyReg]

I've thought for a while some sort of Twiggyball is the way to go. What Super Rugby gave us was a too-wide geographical spread resulting in not enough local derbies, which we realised we don't like. As a starting point I'd like to see the five Oz sides + two Pacific teams (we should grab our Pacifika pals before the Kiwis do) + ONE Asian franchise. I'd recommend Hong Kong as it's in a friendly time zone and is a good weekend away for supporters. I'd also suggest Fiji and the other Pacifika team play most of their games in Sydney (Parramatta or St Marys Stadium?) or Brisbane. Only if/when this new format's successful should any sort of expansion be considered, we MUST walk before we run.

If World Rugby wants to develop professional first class rugby in Asia, well, that's up to them, but I'm not keen to have Chinese, Malaysian, Singaporean, Korean, Russian or Japanese involvement. There's fertile ground here for WR (World Rugby) to set up an east Asian competition; however, it's not our job.

Along with a revamped Super Rugby I'm strongly in favour of keeping the NRC going with one twist: Fiji out and the Western Sydney Rams back in. The state RUs have to be strongly committed and involved in the eight teams.

The fact that World Rugby pay for the Drua's inclusion I reckon is good enough reason for them to stay. They have been an amazing addition to the comp. In fact if World Rugby wanted to fund other teams to come in, I'd welcome them too.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Ok fair enough, but that not called discussions mate that is called lectures. You are correct it is an Australian RUGBY discussion, and I apologise , I never realised it was an Australian ONLY thread. I didn't think I ever went overboard anyway, and would certainly appreciate you telling me what I said in my post that has upset you.
I agree that Aus rugby should be making decisions 100% Aus biased, they should always have done and believe that right or wrong that is what they do. Same as NZRU, SARU, IRRU,WRU etc etc should ALL make decisions biased towards what is good for the game in their country. I will bet everyone of them will have some thoughts towards Aus rugby because it is in all their interests for Aus rugby to stay pertinent as it is for Aus rugby to have other strong rugby nations. It onething Aus rugby has over NRL and AFL , it is an international sport, it is also drawback as you just can't just change everything to suit what is good for only you!
And as I said please let me know what I said in my post that got you riled up.

I will add mate there are plenty in NZ like you who are convinced that 6N rugby care about nothing but themselves and are holding back SH rugby. You are not alone in feeling like a victim easiest thing in the world to do.

Where in the place we are largey thanks to our own incompetence and lack of strength in regards to planning and development. I wouldn't assume the role of a victim. More as someone who thinks the time has well and truly come that we look to suit ourselves more.

 

[Dan54]

Where in the place we are largey thanks to our own incompetence and lack of strength in regards to planning and development. I wouldn't assume the role of a victim. More as someone who thinks the time has well and truly come that we look to suit ourselves more.

Couldn't agree more, but we have to look at our strengths as a game, and as I said it is being international, so we (and by we I mean those in RA) have to use those strengths I believe and not distance ourselves from them. If Australia decided to say stuff everyone else we only do what is good for us and we want you to go along with our wishes or you can go and get stuffed, I not sure it will help the game here to much. See we need test rugby more than probably anything, and that will only continue by being part of WR (World Rugby)!! AS I said Bill Beaumont has already indicated that Australia is going to need extra help, but I wouldn't mind betting if RA don't work in with them they may find it not being quite as forthcoming.
And I would agree with things being tough everyone will have to look after themselves to a point, don't think any other union is not suffering at moment.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Couldn't agree more, but we have to look at our strengths as a game, and as I said it is being international, so we (and by we I mean those in RA) have to use those strengths I believe and not distance ourselves from them. If Australia decided to say stuff everyone else we only do what is good for us and we want you to go along with our wishes or you can go and get stuffed, I not sure it will help the game here to much. See we need test rugby more than probably anything, and that will only continue by being part of WR (World Rugby)!! AS I said Bill Beaumont has already indicated that Australia is going to need extra help, but I wouldn't mind betting if RA don't work in with them they may find it not being quite as forthcoming.
And I would agree with things being tough everyone will have to look after themselves to a point, don't think any other union is not suffering at moment.

I don't think we need to completely do away with the international element. But I tend to believe we need to make it less the main driver and more of an additional aspect adds onto the the domestic content. I would prefer it to either be structured domestic first and then say a Super 6 tournament featuring the Top 2 from each of domestic first or a Champions Cup style tournament split into pools. Either run concurrent to the domestic leagues or again as an extra post season structure.

 

[The Honey Badger]

I didnt mind Stook's idea. The 5 franchises and a Barbarians side (being The Rest). 3 games each week allowing for a Friday/Sat/Sun game. A home and away for each side and then a final.

The possibility of running a Trans Tasman/Pacific series after that would exist. There certainly should be a good launching pad for such a series immediately following a STATE of ORIGIN Style domestic rugby competition.

But more emphasis should be on developing a club comp underneath this.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I didnt mind Stook's idea. The 5 franchises and a Barbarians side (being The Rest). 3 games each week allowing for a Friday/Sat/Sun game. A home and away for each side and then a final.

The possibility of running a Trans Tasman/Pacific series after that would exist. There certainly should be a good launching pad for such a series immediately following a STATE of ORIGIN Style domestic rugby competition.

But more emphasis should be on developing a club comp underneath this.

As I've mentioned above it could work in two phases. The domestic phase and the international. Each looks to go to 3x6 teams domestic structure in the first plus finals. That's 12 weeks. Then in the second phase combine the three while including the three PI's and three other teams into a two 2x6 Cup competitions playing a single round robin for 5 games each with the top 2 from each going into the finals. All up 8 weeks.