Where to for Super Rugby?

[barbarian]

I think you'd be better off having the Origin comp in June. Could be a selection trial for the Wallabies, and a nice lead-in to the Test matches.

Though I think it loses it's sting if you still have a comp with the Tahs and Reds.
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[WorkingClassRugger]

I reckon a combined PI team of some sort in Western Sydney would smash it. It would gain instant cultural traction. And it would fit well, geographically speaking, along side the NSW Waratahs.

According to a study by Western Sydney University there were a little under 280,000 people of PI heritage or descent in Australia as of 2013. Around 40-43% of them being classified as Maori. So, I think there is enough of a potential base there to build a team from. You could set it up in either Sydney or Brisbane as the populations are fairly comparable in this regard. But assuming it's in Sydney they could look to use a facility like Campbelltown Stadium which seats 20,000 and is most empty for the vast majority of the year and will remain so unless the very unlikely event of the Macarthur A-League bid is accepted.

I actually think that a combined PI squad (outside of Fiji who may be able to go it alone) would work at this level well beyond the past international effort which screamed more of gimmick than anything. The key would be to ensure that their are defined links to not only the local PI communities but those back on the Islands to ensure a robust base and talent pool. Should be achievable.

 

[half]

Joe King


The MLS system is just that a model and IMO a good one for us to follow. It allows investors to come in, buy and create teams, and effectively we get the investors capital and business sense.

That is stage 1, i.e creating an unbiased domestic competition.

Stage 2, this is the biggie and I weep as I can see some thing so incredibly oblivious, if you allow time for the process to take hold, investors will come and many will be overseas investors. French & English folk will also buy in.

It frustrates me no end, that people can't see the bleeding obvious, we need capital and business smarts so lets let these folk form a competition under our control. Let them run it. We need to create a system that will encourage them to invest.

On the Grammar school kid re reactions by some. Sorry you missed the point, I repeat I have spoken to a number of coaches who say the quality of junior player we get today is a lessor quality overall. Many kids that choose rugby are now choosing NRL, AFL, Soccer, when I saw a picture of the grammar school kid 10 to 15 years ago he would have been in the rugby team. This is another effect of being hidden on a US media platform and having only a few sides.

 

[Tomikin]

According to a study by Western Sydney University there were a little under 280,000 people of PI heritage or descent in Australia as of 2013. Around 40-43% of them being classified as Maori. So, I think there is enough of a potential base there to build a team from. You could set it up in either Sydney or Brisbane as the populations are fairly comparable in this regard. But assuming it's in Sydney they could look to use a facility like Campbelltown Stadium which seats 20,000 and is most empty for the vast majority of the year and will remain so unless the very unlikely event of the Macarthur A-League bid is accepted.

I actually think that a combined PI squad (outside of Fiji who may be able to go it alone) would work at this level well beyond the past international effort which screamed more of gimmick than anything. The key would be to ensure that their are defined links to not only the local PI communities but those back on the Islands to ensure a robust base and talent pool. Should be achievable.

Now because they are based out of Sydney do the become eligible for Australia after 3 years or do we say too the Islanders that this team is for you too play in live here but play for your native country..

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[Omar Comin']

I think rather than having a Pacific Island team based in Western Sydney it'd be better to have a Western Sydney team that has some close affiliation with the Pacific Islands (or just Samoa and Tonga, as Fiji could have their own team). Western Sydney has 2 million people and any team there should embrace the whole population as potential fans and (for the youth) future players. Maybe such a team could commit to having some % of the squad made up of PI eligible players, and the name and branding could still be Polynesian influenced, but I feel having a 100% ethnic team in such a diverse area would be a mistake.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Now because they are based out of Sydney do the become eligible for Australia after 3 years or do we say too the Islanders that this team is for you too play in live here but play for your native country..

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It's being changed to 5 years pretty soon. But yes, the idea would be that if they are directly from the Islands or directly state their intent to play for their ancestral homelands upon signing up then they wouldn't be in consideration come Test time. Much as it is now. Difference would be continual access to regular competition.

 

[Omar Comin']

Surely, the competitiveness wouldn't be too much of a step down from Super Rugby currently. And surely, the exodus of players below the top 40 players wouldn't be as great as we might think, no?

As long as the wages are better than the secondary leagues in Europe it wouldn't be any worse than it is now. There aren't limitless places for foreigners in the English Premiership, Top 14 and Pro 14. And that limit is already reached. Nothing will change until another professional league gets rich and increases the number of high paying rugby player jobs out in the world. Maybe Major League Rugby in the US will do that one day, but it won't be in the near future, and there aren't any other contenders.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I think rather than having a Pacific Island team based in Western Sydney it'd be better to have a Western Sydney team that has some close affiliation with the Pacific Islands (or just Samoa and Tonga, as Fiji could have their own team). Western Sydney has 2 million people and any team there should embrace the whole population as potential fans and (for the youth) future players. Maybe such a team could commit to having some % of the squad made up of PI eligible players, and the name and branding could still be Polynesian influenced, but I feel having a 100% ethnic team in such a diverse area would be a mistake.

Yeah, that would be fair enough as well. It would require a re-brand of the Tahs to Sydney instead of NSW but if we are being totally honest. They've essentially been a Sydney team for a long time now.

 

[Omar Comin']

Yeah, that would be fair enough as well. It would require a re-brand of the Tahs to Sydney instead of NSW but if we are being totally honest. They've essentially been a Sydney team for a long time now.

It wouldn't necessarily have to. I mean Western Sydney is still a part of Sydney just as it is a part of NSW, so changing the Waratahs to Sydney doesn't make a difference in that respect. The Waratahs can still claim they're a team for all of NSW, even if they have a team or teams staking out part of their territory (this is already the case with the Brumbies and Southern NSW).

Maybe with another team in Sydney, and possibly even another team in Newcastle, the Waratahs could even put some actual focus on engaging with the rest of the state.

 

[Braveheart81]

If the new comp was with this structure I definitely think a blockbuster state of origin style series between NSW and Qld and not use the Waratahs and Reds as part of the normal comp would be the best way to give NSWRU and QRU a revenue generator to help fund grassroots.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

If the new comp was with this structure I definitely think a blockbuster state of origin style series between NSW and Qld and not use the Waratahs and Reds as part of the normal comp would be the best way to give NSWRU and QRU a revenue generator to help fund grassroots.

Would prefer this than having the NSW Tahs competing in such a structure.

 

[Omar Comin']

I think you need to keep the Waratahs and Reds in the main competition. They are now essentially club teams with members, regular fan bases etc, and would need to be the foundation of a new tournament. So from that perspective it probably would be better if they changed to Sydney and Brisbane. State of Origin teams could just be NSW and QLD, no nicknames necessary.

What do you do with all the players not from either NSW or QLD? A combined states team lacks identity, and would also probably struggle to be competitive, yet it would be a shame for the best of those players not to be included. I suppose you could have some kind of All Stars team involving all the best players in the competition not from NSW and QLD (so including foreign players). That would solve the competitive aspect but probably not the identity aspect (i.e. people wouldn't care about them). The other option would just be to make every Australian player somehow eligible for either NSW or QLD.

 

[Rebels3]

If the new comp was with this structure I definitely think a blockbuster state of origin style series between NSW and Qld and not use the Waratahs and Reds as part of the normal comp would be the best way to give NSWRU and QRU a revenue generator to help fund grassroots.

Would it be a revenue generator?

I'm a born and bred QLD'er and have almost no interest in seeing some manufactured SOO ripoff. To me QLD is the Reds, any other representative of the state as a whole would (and i understand this is just my opinion) look like a cheap ripoff of an already established QLD team against an already used concept. SOO is special in league because its the pinnacle of the game, it reaches audiences that are crying of thirst of a gladiatorial contest that i am sorry to say only league can provide. Players charging into each other off the kick off and getting back up and doing it over and over again in a kamikaze nature is origins charm. Rugby is so much more than that, its charm is the tactical nature of it, it's rough. it's tough, but it's also a game of chess (smart and skillful). It can also be slow, sloppy and a sight for sore eyes, hardly the kamikaze-high intensity game the 2-3 times a year tune in the TV audience is after.

The Bledisloe is our origin, any SOO contest would quickly become Leagues City/Country equivalent.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think it would be a revenue generator.

I am saying it would be the only three games a year that the NSW Waratahs and Qld Reds play and would be akin to the old state of the union games.

If the NSWRU and QRU want to have a separate team in the other comp that has privately backed teams then that is fine but I tend to think they should only do so if they also bring in private equity.

This concept would replace the revenue contribution the Waratahs etc. provides to NSWRU.

If you held it over 3 weeks before the tests started and it doubled as a quasi selection trial with all our potential Wallabies then there would be plenty of interest I think.

I also think you can pigeonhole pretty much every player that is around the Wallabies into one of those sides.

If you have a domestic comp with new teams it is hard to allow these teams to be part of it as they are likely to dominate particularly against newly formed sides.

 

[Ignoto]

If you want some type of exhibition match without ripping off SOO, do what the yanks do in NFL and NBA. You have a East vs West competition, but with our geography, you'd have to make it North vs South.

So, perhaps any NRC player on Perth and above are eligible for the North Team (that includes the Central Coast). Anything Sydney and below are the filthy Southerners.

 

[kiap]

Would prefer this than having the NSW Tahs competing in such a structure.

I think focusing on fitting a team's name into a pre-determined formula (e.g. X city + Y moniker) carries less weight than looking at how to bring the most support and resources to any new competition.

The NSW Waratahs and Qld Reds are "heartland" teams but they stopped being representative sides a long time ago. Many argue that they never were.

A franchise team name doesn't prevent the addition of another neighbouring team, or preclude a rep team or origin team.

Does having the NZ Warriors mean that rugby league can't have a NZ representative test team? The answer is, of course, No.

The NSW Waratahs and Qld Reds "brands", to use a distasteful word to some, have been built up over many decades and are well established.

Tread carefully before stripping those down from 7 home games a year to 1 because of a needless requirement for name orthodoxy.

 

[Strewthcobber]

The NSW Waratahs and Qld Reds are "heartland" teams but they stopped being representative sides a long time ago. Many argue that they never were.

Half the problem with pro rugby in Queensland is that the QRU haven't grasped that fact.

Secondly, Queensland Rugby is also responsible for the representative rugby pathways which culminate in the professional Super Rugby team, the St. George Queensland Reds.

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[Braveheart81]

Tread carefully before stripping those down from 7 home games a year to 1 because of a needless requirement for name orthodoxy.

I agree and this was certainly my previous position that they had to play in whatever competition we ended up with but I think they potentially damage the ability to bring in private equity and also create situations where teams are tied to grassroots bodies that we can't afford to fail if they get it wrong commercially.

We want these teams to have funding that exceeds their revenue by some margin particularly early on.

The majority of players will be from NSW or Qld originally or have a reasonable connection with one of those states. If you need to create a rule where each team gets a couple of wildcards that fit in the couple of players that have no connection with either side then you can do that.

If you went through the current Brumbies and Rebels teams you would be able to fairly easily allocate just about all their players to Qld or NSW without causing too much drama.

The idea would be it would involve all the players who are going to make the Wallabies squad plus the ones who get close and miss out.

 

[Joe King]

I just want to say how much I enjoy reading this thread. I seriously learn so much from you guys. And I like to imagine that maybe, just maybe, RA will get it right (even by accident), and something really special will emerge after 2020. And we can look back on all the discussion and dreaming through this thread and feel a sense of satisfaction and joy.

 

[Snowy]

N

I think rather than having a Pacific Island team based in Western Sydney it'd be better to have a Western Sydney team that has some close affiliation with the Pacific Islands (or just Samoa and Tonga, as Fiji could have their own team). Western Sydney has 2 million people and any team there should embrace the whole population as potential fans and (for the youth) future players. Maybe such a team could commit to having some % of the squad made up of PI eligible players, and the name and branding could still be Polynesian influenced, but I feel having a 100% ethnic team in such a diverse area would be a mistake.

NSW / RA can not even keep shute shield sides going in this area what the hell makes you think this is going to work . im from the being thrown under the bus side of the country - they have done nothing to embrace potential fans weather from western Sydney or western Australia that is why the code is going to shit