Where to for Super Rugby?

[kiap]

Not arguing whether it was substainable, just saying in my opinion the comp isn't better without them.

Unsustainable, by definition, can't be better.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yeah nah. I'm with the new kiwi Paul Cully: "Best of both worlds".

I'm fine with either. Probably leaning a little more towards the national competitions format we have at present. But I think we need to account for what broadcasters want as well. And I think a combined league may be their option.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

What I think we need to figure out is the direction we want to go toward. CVC has just acquired 14% of the 6Ns and are now apparently looking at acquiring a similar share in SA Rugby. So I think we will see some significant realignment s occurring up north in the near future.

Part of the reason I think we'll see a combined league from a RA/NZR perspective will be the relative ease it will provide in aligning with Japan and other potential growth markets in the future.

So having a single league that allows us to more seamlessly establish a Cup competition with the Japanese may be the preference.

 

[Rebel man]

In every way.

The same head-to-heads can be played over the season; and with a transnational champion. But there is full control over all aspects of the Au component and consequently three-quarters of all our teams' output - scheduling, commercial arrangements, law variants, cap and roster rules, officiating panels, all aspects.

As soon as that is folded into an "Anzar" those powers are diluted/forfeited and will be locked out from being recovered. Everyone knows how useless and conflicted Sanzaar was.

Makes for an inferior product -- and there's no need to do it.

5 teams with 3 making finals is pathetic. I try and get mates who aren’t into rugby to watch it and they see it as a joke. It will never grow the game here long term. Super Rugby Au is a stop gap no more no less

 

[Rebel man]

I don't think that is what rebel is saying, but those that say Aus should go alone to make sure there a Aus winner type thing are probably wrong. French and English comps aren't run with only 5 teams as they know it not going to last. Doesn't have to be kiwi teams. Japan have 10 teams which seems a reasonable size to me. As a kiwi, even if indeed the 2 PI teams came into NZ super comp I believe it still 3-5 teams short of an ideal size.

Exactly this

 

[kiap]

a single league that allows us to more seamlessly establish a Cup competition with the Japanese

But there's no impediment.

Such a cup comp - if it happens - will be from multiple leagues, any way you cut it.

Japan aren't going to merge their property, because that would just be dumb.

 

[hoggy]

I don't think that is what rebel is saying, but those that say Aus should go alone to make sure there a Aus winner type thing are probably wrong. French and English comps aren't run with only 5 teams as they know it not going to last. Doesn't have to be kiwi teams. Japan have 10 teams which seems a reasonable size to me. As a kiwi, even if indeed the 2 PI teams came into NZ super comp I believe it still 3-5 teams short of an ideal size.

look I agree that 5-6 teams is not ideal, which just highlights the damage 20 years of Super rugby has done to the game here.

But why shouldn't Australian rugby have a winner each year, why are they probably wrong. The NRL & AFL every year crown a champion, so lets look at the economic benefit every year those domestic finals provide for there codes.

So what happens when another year passes with say a Blues v Crusaders final. A little less money for grassroots, a little less media attention.

Okay sign up for a TT, but how does that get the game here any closer to more domestic content, how do we ever get to 8-10 teams.

Of course NZ want a TT, it is to a certain extent a perfect fit for the set up of the game there.

But is it the best option, long term for Australian rugby.

 

[Rebel man]

look I agree that 5-6 teams is not ideal, which just highlights the damage 20 years of Super rugby has done to the game here.

But why shouldn't Australian rugby have a winner each year, why are they probably wrong. The NRL & AFL every year crown a champion, so lets look at the economic benefit every year those domestic finals provide for there codes.

So what happens when another year passes with say a Blues v Crusaders final. A little less money for grassroots, a little less media attention.

Okay sign up for a TT, but how does that get the game here any closer to more domestic content, how do we ever get to 8-10 teams.

Of course NZ want a TT, it is to a certain extent a perfect fit for the set up of the game there.

But is it the best option, long term for Australian rugby.

People in Melbourne said the same thing about what happens when no Melbourne side is in the AFL GF

Finals aren’t taken seriously when 3 out of 5 sides make it

Also the NRL doesn’t necessarily have an Australian champion every year

Under the 25 years of super rugby we went from 3 provincial sides to 5 could we have had more pro sides if we set up say a national comp in 96? Maybe but that’s a what if

 

[kiap]

Finals aren’t taken seriously when 3 out of 5 sides make it

Uh huh. Think you'll find these games will get an increase in ratings.

Even your Rebel mate, while pretending to tune out, will be hate-watching.

Btw, there's no set in stone 3 from 5. That's the beauty of control, if they want to move to 2 from 6 they can just do it.

 

[Rebel man]

Uh huh. Think you'll find these games will get an increase in ratings.

Even your Rebel mate, while pretending to tune out, will be hate-watching.

In what way it’s only a captive fan base watching it. I have a lot of Kiwi mates who don’t even bother tuning into Super Rugby Au and only watch super rugby Nz

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

But there's no impediment.

Such a cup comp - if it happens - will be from multiple leagues, any way you cut it.

Japan aren't going to merge their property, because that would just be dumb.

Not suggesting Japan would or should merge their property. Japan has outlined the basic structure of their new league being a 12 team 1st division competing over 16 rounds plus finals. With room built in for a cross border competition. Time zones would suggest the best candidates for that competition are Aus and NZ.

I just get the sense from everything I've read that they'd (being primarily broadcasters) prefer to a TT competition and then a Cup structure to sell particularly to the more casual observer than three individual competitions. Personally, I'd actually like to see a national competitions being the primary focus. But I think we'd require significant investment to do it at a level we'd need in order to grow.

Ideally, we'd have the money to not only sign the best overseas based Aus talent but a bunch of the better NH talent in something akin to what GRR was intially set out to be. Which was kind of something along the lines of the IPL of Rugby.

 

[hoggy]

People in Melbourne said the same thing about what happens when no Melbourne side is in the AFL GF

Finals aren’t taken seriously when 3 out of 5 sides make it

Also the NRL doesn’t necessarily have an Australian champion every year

Under the 25 years of super rugby we went from 3 provincial sides to 5 could we have had more pro sides if we set up say a national comp in 96? Maybe but that’s a what if

This comes down to a difference in opinion Rebel Man, I'm not against a TT competition, I originate from Wellington, The hurricanes are my team, lets face it if I grew in Aus i probably wouldn't be commenting on G&G rugby.

A TT competition has many things going for it, and could very well be the best option moving forward, but in my humble opinion as someone that has lived pretty much everywhere in Aus for 30 years, that any team based sporting code especially in tribal land Australia, without a genuine proper domestic presence cannot really thrive or essentially compete against the imbedded tribal competitions that dominate the landscape here.

The game is at a crossroads here, and a TT from 2022 may well be on the cards, but come 2040 will we be saying "what if" we just ripped the Band-Aids off come 2021

 

[kiap]

In what way it’s only a captive fan base watching it.

In just the way I said: higher numbers.

i.e. over the regular season games.

I have a lot of Kiwi mates who don’t even bother tuning into Super Rugby Au and only watch super rugby Nz

I'm sure you do.

Thing is, though, the current format will still outrate the old tired version of full Sanzaar soup - as it finally died last year after being zombied for multiple seasons.

 

[Rebel man]

This comes down to a difference in opinion Rebel Man, I'm not against a TT competition, I originate from Wellington, The hurricanes are my team, lets face it if I grew in Aus i probably wouldn't be commenting on G&G rugby.

A TT competition has many things going for it, and could very well be the best option moving forward, but in my humble opinion as someone that has lived pretty much everywhere in Aus for 30 years, that any team based sporting code especially in tribal land Australia, without a genuine proper domestic presence cannot really thrive or essentially compete against the imbedded tribal competitions that dominate the landscape here.

The game is at a crossroads here, and a TT from 2022 may well be on the cards, but come 2040 will we be saying "what if" we just ripped the Band-Aids off come 2021

There is no perfect answer but as a kid who was born in Melbourne grew up here many years ago played a bit of club rugby here most of my mates are non rugby people and they all think a 5 team comp is pathetic. You aren’t going to win the minds of non rugby people

At the moment I believe a Trans Tasman is the best option but that doesn’t mean we are joined at the hip forever, we have to have strategic goals to grow the game here. Maybe in 10 years financially we are in position that we could support 8 pro sides here. I agree we have to be flexible moving forward

 

[Rebel man]

In just the way I said: higher numbers.

i.e. over the regular season games.


I'm sure you do.

Thing is, though, the current format will still outrate the old tired version of full Sanzaar soup - as it finally died last year after being zombied for multiple seasons.

Yeah because there aren’t other factors like FTA that will impact that

 

[kiap]

Yeah because there aren’t other factors like FTA that will impact that

Would not be surprised after the season numbers are in that pay and free are up. The old supe format really was close to dead.

And of course, there's no FTA for your NZ mates in NZ.

 

[Rebel man]

Would not be surprised after the season numbers are in that pay and free are up. The old supe format really was close to dead.

And of course, there's no FTA for your NZ mates in NZ.

Funny the FTA numbers are up

 

[kiap]

Funny the FTA numbers are up

The finals aren't played yet, old son.

 

[hoggy]

There is no perfect answer but as a kid who was born in Melbourne grew up here many years ago played a bit of club rugby here most of my mates are non rugby people and they all think a 5 team comp is pathetic. You aren’t going to win the minds of non rugby people

At the moment I believe a Trans Tasman is the best option but that doesn’t mean we are joined at the hip forever, we have to have strategic goals to grow the game here. Maybe in 10 years financially we are in position that we could support 8 pro sides here. I agree we have to be flexible moving forward

Well I do remember playing for Croyden, when I used to live in Melbourne. Sadly my rugby ability never matched my enthusiasm.
Then maybe a TT is an option but again just make sure your not having to rip the band of in 10 years, what are the structural steps that need to be put in place that you have that option in 10 years.

 

[Dan54]

look I agree that 5-6 teams is not ideal, which just highlights the damage 20 years of Super rugby has done to the game here.

But why shouldn't Australian rugby have a winner each year, why are they probably wrong. The NRL & AFL every year crown a champion, so lets look at the economic benefit every year those domestic finals provide for there codes.

So what happens when another year passes with say a Blues v Crusaders final. A little less money for grassroots, a little less media attention.

Okay sign up for a TT, but how does that get the game here any closer to more domestic content, how do we ever get to 8-10 teams.

Of course NZ want a TT, it is to a certain extent a perfect fit for the set up of the game there.

But is it the best option, long term for Australian rugby.

Yep I understand what you saying , but do you think NRL and AFL would be successful with only 5 teams. I not against Aussie winners as you say, but I thinking more you have to give the public a decent comp to watch to maintain interest. If you really want a comp with only Aus teams perhaps the answer is to get another 4-5 teams, so something like NRC? Anyway perhaps we should just agree to disagree, I don't think a 5 team comp will be substainable, and perhaps you do. No worries. be interested to see what Stan want.
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