Where to for Super Rugby?

[qwerty51]

Imagine still talking about the competitiveness of Australian teams when you could just end all discussion by acknowledging it would be a free movement comp.

 

[Adam84]

Hamish has agreed don’t have cattle for 5 teams but hinted allowing filling with players from nZ, South Africa and Argentina - if we have nzru and RA move to model where eligible for national team selection if play super rugby even if for team outside of own country could work.

I am just not sure NZRU progressive enough for this.

that might work for Australian teams as they undoubtedly will plunder the ITM Cup, not sure we will see as much opportunity for Australian players going the other way though, I still think there needs to be a quota or minimum number of Australian eligible players in each team.

 

[Adam84]

Imagine still talking about the competitiveness of Australian teams when you could just end all discussion by acknowledging it would be a free movement comp.

who exactly is acknowledging this?

 

[qwerty51]

who exactly is acknowledging this?

No one, that's the point.

 

[Adam84]

No one, that's the point.

who is required to acknowledge that is more the question then, and what do they have to lose by doing so.

NZRU for example, accepted as one of the possessing the single best rugby development pathway in the world at multiple levels, why would they want to break this system by allowing/encouraging their players to play in vastly inferior pathways?

 

[qwerty51]

To make it a reality.

 

[Adam84]

I dont follow

 

[qwerty51]

Why would NZ restrict their players from playing for Australian teams? How would a Trans-Tasman comp get done if Australia can't field enough teams without it?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

that might work for Australian teams as they undoubtedly will plunder the ITM Cup, not sure we will see as much opportunity for Australian players going the other way though, I still think there needs to be a quota or minimum number of Australian eligible players in each team.

There certainly should be a quota system in place. At least 70% of each squad needs to be Wallabies/All Blacks declared. Not eligible but declared. So in a squad of 35 around 25 of those would be declared for the nation in which that team is domiciled and not eligible for selection for another nation.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

that might work for Australian teams as they undoubtedly will plunder the ITM Cup, not sure we will see as much opportunity for Australian players going the other way though, I still think there needs to be a quota or minimum number of Australian eligible players in each team.

The difference of course is ITM players then don’t have to leave oz teams to return to nz when they suddenly become good in order to qualify for all blacks selection.

Quotas are fine but I would be more generous on quotas for overseas players in early years...

 

[Slim 293]

really cant argue with logic like this can you..
if you aren't going to consider the competitiveness and viability of the Australian teams, then fuck it why stop at 5 teams, why not bring in the Adelaide Rams as well.

The Adelaide Strawmen?

 

[KOB1987]

I might be being really cynical here, but if you assume the Force (ironically) are going to survive any cull, and would pick up a few players, how many players each would the other four franchises need to let go to get down to three? Just seems to be a slow and steady outflow of non-essential mid tier players is all..maybe I’m reading too much into it.

 

[Adam84]

The Adelaide Strawmen?

Is this what you do, memes and sarcastic posts to those whose opinion differs from your own?

For the same effort, you could engage constructively.

 

[Adam84]

Why would NZ restrict their players from playing for Australian teams? How would a Trans-Tasman comp get done if Australia can't field enough teams without it?

Because it weakens their own depth, devalues their own product and it spreads out their player base to clubs and organisations with inferior development pathways to their own

As for your second question, Australia doesn’t have the depth to field 5 teams in a trans Tasman comp.

 

[Dan54]

Because it weakens their own depth, devalues their own product and it spreads out their player base to clubs and organisations with inferior development pathways to their own

I think it more that NZRU then loses control of the players, in all honesty as an Aus super coach who would you rather nurse through the comp, players that were going to play for Wallabies or one that was going to play for ABs? We have got to the point where it seems the Wallabies coaching staff are getting some say in how the Super teams are coached/managed, as is how it should be, and NZRU do the same, there is no way Aus would allow Feek etc to come and get involved in helping forwards do scrummaging work, and vice versa.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think it more that NZRU then loses control of the players, in all honesty as an Aus super coach who would you rather nurse through the comp, players that were going to play for Wallabies or one that was going to play for ABs? We have got to the point where it seems the Wallabies coaching staff are getting some say in how the Super teams are coached/managed, as is how it should be, and NZRU do the same, there is no way Aus would allow Feek etc to come and get involved in helping forwards do scrummaging work, and vice versa.

Some interesting observations Dan. Makes me feel more pessimistic of the notion a solution for oz rugby is a trans Tasman competition. Finding a solution to this mess is in the too hard basket for me and feel bit gloomy on what next year might look like.

 

[dru]

Some interesting observations Dan. Makes me feel more pessimistic of the notion a solution for oz rugby is a trans Tasman competition. Finding a solution to this mess is in the too hard basket for me and feel bit gloomy on what next year might look like.

Double yes. It has been said here for ages. Given these supposed constraints then a TT is not tenable.

As for your second question, Australia doesn’t have the depth to field 5 teams in a trans Tasman comp.

Adam, probable outcomes - Aus franchises are further reduced, effectively or actually to only the teams wanted by NZ. This outcome seems likely though there has been no explanation by it's supporters on how it is funded. We have a scenario following each shrinkage, where a shrink in funding follows leading to the need for a new shrink. Why is this suddenly resolved when broadcast dollars are worse than ever?

But actually that might be OK, or at least less catestrophic, is the comp funds itself. There is no need for RA to support such a Kiwi centric venture. Effectively a NZ comp with minor Aus teams. Let that comp (the Kiwis) fund themselves. Set rules around availability for Wallabies as a prerequisite for granting approval to join a comp outside of Australia.

I'd imagine they would take three franchises, on the surface Brumbies, Waratahs and Reds.

Super as we have known it, is over. RA at the roulette wheel placed all their money on black 6. And failed.

Now let them get back to Australian rugby, target a domestic comp.

 

[hoggy]

If you go with a TT competition, you still have many of the structural issues that plagued Super Rugby, what is good for NZ rugby does not necessary flow onto Australia. With separate domestic competitions much of those differences can be catered for without affecting each-other negatively.

Cross border championships can go ahead, but the make-up of each countries domestic competition should be determined separately, not what suits another party.

 

[qwerty51]

Because it weakens their own depth, devalues their own product and it spreads out their player base to clubs and organisations with inferior development pathways to their own

As for your second question, Australia doesn’t have the depth to field 5 teams in a trans Tasman comp.

How does it weaken their depth if those players who would move to Australia aren't playing Super Rugby already? What product is there to devalue if one doesn't exist? This is making no sense.

Also if Australia only fields 5 teams in a Trans Tasman comp, the whole thing will be dead before it begins.

You've got people stilled viewing this comp as a development comp for International rugby. I give up. Professional rugby is dead in Australia with views like this.

 

[Dan54]

Some interesting observations Dan. Makes me feel more pessimistic of the notion a solution for oz rugby is a trans Tasman competition. Finding a solution to this mess is in the too hard basket for me and feel bit gloomy on what next year might look like.

I not sure why, Aus rugby has to be strong enough to produce it's own players, and I believe it is, but if anyone doesn't believe that it would follow that rugby here would weaken even more by not playing better players surely. In the meantime get a few from Argentina, SA,the Islands?