Where to for Super Rugby?

[WorkingClassRugger]

Absolutely SRA is ticking a lot of boxes but it's almost literally the only game in town right now (other than basketball which is running with a two games a night, five nights a week at one venue format & netball who are also running a single venue with only a small number of fans catered for) what with the Warriors in Australia (& barely troubling the scoreboard let alone the leader board) & the Phoenix about to be.

Longer-term I still think NZR's preference is for a trans-Tasman comp, with parallel dmestic comps & a Champions League to follow very much the Plan B.

I think that would be RA's preferred model as well. A full home and away TT competition. I actually think in terms of investment it would be a more attractive proposition than either nation going it alone.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

That would be my preference as well, we run our domestic competition along the same time frame as the Kiwi's and look at some form of crossover (champ league style).

The advantage of this would at last be some sort of independence, we can finally structure the comp along lines that would work in Australia, if we go with 5 teams against the Kiwis in a TT comp, reality is we will simply not be competitive, which is highlighted when playing week on week, yet a champion league will allow us to mask that by a certain amount.

It also gives us a winner every year, will encourage PE, also can be structured along cost lines that we can afford, and maybe allow expansion that can benefit growth ie; a 2nd NSW team. it ticks a lot of boxes.

From a PE perspective I'd imagine a competition that balances markets and competitiveness would be the most ideal situation. Which is why a TT competition would likely be the most attractive option first if it can be achieved. I actually think a stake in a whole structure as opposed to individual teams would be something PE would be more interested in and being able to provide them with a pretty much up and running structure to build from would be their preference.

In fact, I think both RA and NZR should put together a proposal to any PE putting their feelers out and about of initially a 10 team TT competition with plans to go to 12 teams via expanding into more Australian markets (economics at play here. We are the bigger market. One that has been largely untapped and has a history of paying good money for content) supplemented by more international sourced talent.

 

[KOB1987]

From a PE perspective I'd imagine a competition that balances markets and competitiveness would be the most ideal situation. Which is why a TT competition would likely be the most attractive option first if it can be achieved. I actually think a stake in a whole structure as opposed to individual teams would be something PE would be more interested in and being able to provide them with a pretty much up and running structure to build from would be their preference.

In fact, I think both RA and NZR should put together a proposal to any PE putting their feelers out and about of initially a 10 team TT competition with plans to go to 12 teams via expanding into more Australian markets (economics at play here. We are the bigger market. One that has been largely untapped and has a history of paying good money for content) supplemented by more international sourced talent.

Why not both? The fundies & HNW's can own the competition and the supporters and sponsors can take a stake in the franchises.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Why not both? The fundies & HNW's can own the competition and the supporters and sponsors can take a stake in the franchises.

There's no reason why that cannot be an option under that model. It would require two rather different mindsets with one seeking a for profit motive and the other less so.

 

[KOB1987]

There's no reason why that cannot be an option under that model. It would require two rather different mindsets with one seeking a for profit motive and the other less so.

Yes, exactly. The ownership of the franchises comes with other benefits such as priority seating etc but no expectation of a direct financial return.

 

[hoggy]

Absolutely SRA is ticking a lot of boxes but it's almost literally the only game in town right now (other than basketball which is running with a two games a night, five nights a week at one venue format & netball who are also running a single venue with only a small number of fans catered for) what with the Warriors in Australia (& barely troubling the scoreboard let alone the leader board) & the Phoenix about to be.

Longer-term I still think NZR's preference is for a trans-Tasman comp, with parallel dmestic comps & a Champions League to follow very much the Plan B.

I don't know I buy that, I think a few things need to be considered. Rugby is the biggest game in town in NZ, do they not have faith in there market. Will the Phoenix or Warriors really have that much affect on crowd/fan support, I agree that right now we're in a honeymoon period, but to me the ingredients are there for sustained interest tribalism/rivalry/competitiveness/history.

What does a TT comp offer that closed conferences followed by a champions league doesn't, you lose the value of adding a separate competition. How does a champions league work when you've already played each other in a TT comp, yes you maybe adding SA/Japan but theirs nothing stopping you from doing that with local comps, local competitions means any champions league style comp is value adding.

Hows does Australia compete, do we go with 3 teams to be competitive, back to shrink our way to greatness, a winner every 4 or 5 years.

How does the game expand in Australia with a TT comp, when NZ will always put there interests first.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I don't know I buy that, I think a few things need to be considered. Rugby is the biggest game in town in NZ, do they not have faith in there market. Will the Phoenix or Warriors really have that much affect on crowd/fan support, I agree that right now we're in a honeymoon period, but to me the ingredients are there for sustained interest tribalism/rivalry/competitiveness/history.

What does a TT comp offer that closed conferences followed by a champions league doesn't, you lose the value of adding a separate competition. How does a champions league work when you've already played each other in a TT comp, yes you maybe adding SA/Japan but theirs nothing stopping you from doing that with local comps, local competitions means any champions league style comp is value adding.

Hows does Australia compete, do we go with 3 teams to be competitive, back to shrink our way to greatness, a winner every 4 or 5 years.

How does the game expand in Australia with a TT comp, when NZ will always put there interests first.

There's definitely a great deal to iron out. Which is why a interim deal for next season in the form of a TT competition should be hashed out with the intent on locking something more permanent down for 2022.

I think a lot of things depend on whether PE is in fact interested. If they are you'd imagine some degree of acceptance that capitalising on markets and player movement might be in everyone's best interest long term.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Warriors & Phoenix have regularly drawn larger crowds than Blues & 'canes, usually when they've been winning & Blues & 'canes haven't been travelling so well. basketball is now seen as the main threat to such dominance as rugby still has (more kids play b'ball than rugby in most public & an increasing number of private schools) & there are provinces (North Harbour being one) where Saturday morning rugby is outnumbered by football & districts (South Auckland, Northern Waikato) where league is more popular at all levels.

Obviously it's for RA & their partners to determine what's best for Australian rugby both short- & long term & equally obviously if RA deems that to be a six- to ten-team semi-pro domestic league then NZR will have to factor that into the size & shape of their future comp(s). Personally I'd like to see a ten-team TT comp & watching McLellan on The Breakdown on Tuesday I got the impression that's what he's working towards.

 

[Slim 293]

Personally I'd like to see a ten-team TT comp & watching McLellan on The Breakdown on Tuesday I got the impression that's what he's working towards.

For me, it just seems like the most obvious way forward......... let's keep it simple, start with what we already have, and then eventually build on that whenever there is room for growth.

 

[rugboy]

There is obviously an appetite for anything at the moment sport wise which may reflect the increased eyeballs on rugby in NZ and NRL/AFL domestically. I guess the long term vision on whether there will be viewer fatigue with a 5 team rugby comp playing the same teams over and over would determine whether domestic then Champions League style would work. You could play the same team twice domestically and then again in the playoffs.

 

[KOB1987]

For me, it just seems like the most obvious way forward... let's keep it simple, start with what we already have, and then eventually build on that whenever there is room for growth.

Yes, my thoughts precisely. Funding our 5 teams through it is the sticking point but it's definitely the most logical starting point. Hopefully they are going to incentivise a broadcast deal.

 

[Adam84]

biggest issue with any TT comp, is that Australian wont be have 5 competitive teams based on the current exodus of players... Shit I doubt Australia will have 3 competitive teams at the current rate of players been released..

How entertaining will it be for fans to watch Aussie teams get flogged every week?

 

[Slim 293]

 

[Adam84]

Sorry to inject a bit of pragmatism into the discussion, I guess the lesson of the story is to just ignore reality then.
NZRU and broadcasters will be asking the exact same questions about the competitiveness and viability of Australian teams.

 

[Slim 293]

We may as well scrap the Bledisloe then.........

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yes, my thoughts precisely. Funding our 5 teams through it is the sticking point but it's definitely the most logical starting point. Hopefully they are going to incentivise a broadcast deal.

We could look to do something akin to what you've been suggesting and what the Force did with the Save the Force campaign. Set up the opportunity to buy shares in the the teams at $1000 that gives you a bunch of peaks/voting rights etc. And to make it easier it could be set up similar to the Force initiative and have the amount paid in quarterly periods. The Force's campaign from memory reached commitments of $9m. Could set up similar arrangements for each Super Rugby team (assuming Forrest is invested in the Force for the long term).

Each year in order to keep your ownership share you would have to meet a call to meet the $1000.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

biggest issue with any TT comp, is that Australian wont be have 5 competitive teams based on the current exodus of players. Shit I doubt Australia will have 3 competitive teams at the current rate of players been released..

How entertaining will it be for fans to watch Aussie teams get flogged every week?

Hamish has agreed don’t have cattle for 5 teams but hinted allowing filling with players from nZ, South Africa and Argentina - if we have nzru and RA move to model where eligible for national team selection if play super rugby even if for team outside of own country could work.

I am just not sure NZRU progressive enough for this...

 

[hoggy]

Hamish has agreed don’t have cattle for 5 teams but hinted allowing filling with players from nZ, South Africa and Argentina - if we have nzru and RA move to model where eligible for national team selection if play super rugby even if for team outside of own country could work.

I am just not sure NZRU progressive enough for this.

Will NZ allow there players to ply there trade with the Aus franchises and visa/versa, if not you end up with 5 NZ teams and 5 Aus teams half filled with professional journeymen, you also then have to justify spending money on overseas players against locals.

 

[molman]

Will NZ allow there players to ply there trade with the Aus franchises and visa/versa, if not you end up with 5 NZ teams and 5 Aus teams half filled with professional journeymen, you also then have to justify spending money on overseas players against locals.

That was my thoughts also. How many players would the Kiwi's pickup even if they did decide to go this route? and would that balance the number of spots filled by o/s players in the AU teams.

I'd Ideally love a 10 team TT comp with a possibility for some kind of Champions league in the future with SA/Japan/Argentina

 

[Adam84]

We may as well scrap the Bledisloe then...

really cant argue with logic like this can you..
if you aren't going to consider the competitiveness and viability of the Australian teams, then fuck it why stop at 5 teams, why not bring in the Adelaide Rams as well.