• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

Where to for Super Rugby?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
Yep WCR, but that is basically a conference system, rather than a pool system, and most of players would still not benefit from exposure to international rugby, as only the winners of each conference would play in finals! How is Argentina, Fiji etc going to afford these professional teams?
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
I realise everyone seems to only really worry about there own country, as even Kearnsie said last night, hell who is going to watch rugby games at 2am in the morning, news for Kearnsie 2 am here in Aus is 4 am in NZ which is probably just as an attractive time for kiwis as is 10pm at night. I know a lot of my family at home hardly ever watch games from Aus as it is too late for them, so they just record which ones suit them!
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Mate as with most things in life the simplest answer is the correct one, the ARU is incompetent and has for many years been support by a sycophantic media brigade more interested in ensuring their ongoing unfettered access to players and coaches than actually performing a real critique of the game away from the obligatory game reviews. They are guilty as are many fans, because the permissive attitudes and continual "trust" given to the ARU and other RUs have allowed the game to reach this current nadir. Perhaps if a greater critique and higher actual performance required of management we would not have reached this impasse.

One only has to scan these threads to see the truth of this. Quite often, even the most benign criticism of the ARU et al has been met with hostility. I'm encouraged that we are seeing a peeling off of some of this unquestioning acceptance of management as the font of all rugby wisdom. We've a few converts on board Gnostic and even most of the most virulent apologists have gone quiet.
 

stoff

Trevor Allan (34)
Your post @1100 doesn't seem to be there. Anyway, most are aware of the financial dealings and that the ARU front-loaded the deal and part of the agreement with Cox was predicated on both parties being cognisant of the $3.5 the season prior the ARU tipped in to franchise which steadied the ship and the lack of start up costs for Cox and no layout on facilities. So your figures are not reflective of the arrangements and are selective.

There has been sufficient reporting about major sponsors to get a pretty good idea on figures and the bottom line reporting also gives us a good indicator.

The topic is relevant as its in response to your previous posts where you cited figures:






TOCC's post at #1418 questioned if you citing those figures actually had any relevance until you compared the operational cost of each franchise.

The savings to the ARU are hypothetical as you highlight above "if" the Rebel can cover the the drop in ARU revenue and the impact to other franchises (such as gate takings) if the Rebel perform poorly (as they are currently).

From above: "The Rebels made a small loss last year. The challenge this year will be to cover the drop in ARU revenue this year". So putting this in to context the Rebels need to over come a "small loss" and $1mil less ARU revenue?

I am merely highlighting a differing point of view based on the information I can find in the media that indicates the difference in savings between axing the Force and Rebels is marginal at best on paper, and even more marginal based on benefits the the game overall.

The key difference IMHO is the contractual obligations to Cox means they have no choice but to pay; the viability of the Rebels is a different consideration beyond that and may need the Force to be cut to save money help prop up the Rebels.

I appreciate that people will argue from many points of view including in support of there team, and I have no issue with that. As in this situation, if I am unsure about information i seek clarification and am happily corrected. I simply prefer that the arguments be factual and transparent.

My original posts were designed to give some context to posters who talked about the Rebels being funded $6m for five years without recognising the other franchises were being funded significantly more. As you point out I recognise the challenges for the Rebels in the near and longer term.

The gate takings argument you mention applies differently to each team each year. 12 months ago the Rebels and Force position were polar opposite to today in terms of performance. It will change again.

I agree with you that the Rebels have moved themselves into a stronger position when dealing with the potential of a team being cut by a cash strapped ARU. I think Melbourne has more upside than Perth with a pipeline of Wallaby production prior to super rugby and increasingly strong junior sides. The Force have really reaped the benefit of the WA production line over the past couple of years.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Twoilms

Trevor Allan (34)
If anyone is interested, someone on Reddit has churned through a bunch of financial reports to try and gauge the finances of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.

Linky, link, link.

The RFU figures are pretty encouraging for English rugby. The fact that the RFU owns Twickenham, which fills up regularly, must help a lot.

Do the TV deals work to split the earnings roughly evenly between the 3 (now 5) nations? If not, i don't see why South Africans harp on about SANZAR needing them for the TV money they bring in based on those figures.
 

Strewthcobber

Simon Poidevin (60)
The RFU figures are pretty encouraging for English rugby. The fact that the RFU owns Twickenham, which fills up regularly, must help a lot.

Do the TV deals work to split the earnings roughly evenly between the 3 (now 5) nations? If not, i don't see why South Africans harp on about SANZAR needing them for the TV money they bring in based on those figures.
RFU includes a big bump from the World Cup but they still do pretty well.

The SANZAAR deal is now split pretty equally (I believe!). Under the last deal (which is covered by these finances in the Reddit post) they allegedly undersold the Super/TRC rights and oversold the Currie Cup so they pocketed more and didn't have to share as much with their SANZAR partners.

The other element is that the UK money might come mostly from games in the SA timezone. Don't think we've ever seen that officially confirmed.

But if we did split the comp into SA and trans Tasman timezones, with fewer Aus and NZ teams playing in the republic, SAould certainly have an argument around d claiming more of a share of the GMT money.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Maybe he comes at almost no cost to the Force because it's of benefit to Edinburgh?

Maybe the fact that they lost one lock for the season and their best lock for a number of weeks has put them in a precarious spot regarding locks?

I think you're perhaps overreacting a bit.
 

Highlander35

Steve Williams (59)
Edinburgh also only have between 5 and 7 games left, with him being 5th of 6 in the pecking order of fit locks.

I think he'd more or less be costing the Force his flights, game fees and accommodation.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
One only has to scan these threads to see the truth of this. Quite often, even the most benign criticism of the ARU et al has been met with hostility. I'm encouraged that we are seeing a peeling off of some of this unquestioning acceptance of management as the font of all rugby wisdom. We've a few converts on board Gnostic and even most of the most virulent apologists have gone quiet.


If that is aimed at me, be assured that I have not "gone quiet". I just get tired of saying the same things time after time. It is always a helluva lot easier to criticise than it is to make constructive suggestions.


Most of the criticism of the ARU has been sweeping, amteurish, and not based in much reality.


Then again, my background happens to be in a large and successful professional sporting organisation. I have a reasonable understanding of what is possible, and what is not. And I know that the ARU are now, and have been for a long while, operating in a very difficult environment, with a lot of exogenous factors that impinge on their ability to achieve what we would all like to see achieved. Including, believe it or not, the poor buggers who have devoted a lot of their lives to the game in Australia.


There are so many "experts" on this forum. Argue amongst yourselves. Nothing will come of it, but enjoy yourselves.
 

MACCA

Ron Walden (29)
Maybe he comes at almost no cost to the Force because it's of benefit to Edinburgh?

Maybe the fact that they lost one lock for the season and their best lock for a number of weeks has put them in a precarious spot regarding locks?

I think you're perhaps overreacting a bit.

you may well be right ;)
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
IMO, in the majority of posts in this thread and within the intense concerns over cuts to the number of Australian Super teams, two fundamental realities are not revealed and debated enough, namely:

One, whatever we may think, the truth inside the ARU's head is a rapidly mounting fear that virtually every Australian Super franchise is now headed into financial and commercially dangerous places whereby their core sustainability will be threatened without either (a) radical new external financings from say 'private equity' and/or (b) more likely, directly and significantly increased cash funding from the ARU.

There is not one financially and commercially healthy Australian State RU in existence today. All are experienced falling Super crowds and, generally, falling TV viewership levels (see Two below btw, it's related to One). The Rebels are still utterly dependant upon ARU cash subsidies and Blind Freddy can see that when they stop, with Rebels crowds numbers at c.9k-11k levels, the Rebels will face severe cash flow and core viability challenges even with private owners (and further the ARU seems to have guaranteed many Rebels obligations in the event of a collapse of the Rebels business, and this is another serious event-contingent issue for the ARU to contemplate).

The deterioration all our Super franchises in parallel - vs the historical situation where the individual RU crises and bail-outs were more or less isolated - is the core reason the ARU is highly pre-disposed to structurally reducing its obvious 'lender of last resort' exposure and the emerging real risk of an ARU bankruptcy - should all these trends not be corrected, and there is zero evidence they are being - in c. 2019-20. This essential reduction commends to the ARU the option of cutting one or more Super franchises to reduce the whole-of-system risk that the ARU clearly now sees on its immediate horizon. This factor is just as much a reason for the ARU to potentially want to cut (say) the Force as is the additional disaster they actively helped incept with the arrival of the strategically idiotic S18 format.

This existential problem is almost entirely of the ARU's own design and making - I have been predicting and saying this here since c. 2010. However, that statement does not obviate as consequence the financial hard facts and very worrying related exposures as they are now being realised in St Leonards.

The ARU's forward-looking risk situation is demonstrably perilous and they know that they must reduce their core forward funding exposure as they cannot conceivably fund a scenario where in say 2018 some time the State RUs need (incremental to normal grants) a total annual funding of say $8-10m in new raw cash support. The ARU simply does not credibly have those resources and it is further aware that Wallaby gate income is declining markedly in parallel with all the Super income declines, all of which materially increases the ARU's inherent risk profile to now genuinely dangerous levels.

Two, and this can be quickly summarised: the central problem with Super Rugby in this country today is categorically not one of the S18 format and all the endless variations touted here as proposed fixes for it all of which involve principally format and structural changes and not genuinely radical qualitative measures. The S18 format is a problem, but it is not germane, it is not the root, it is not the central core issue at all.

The root problem is the contemporary quality of Super rugby being played in Australia and this is powerfully reflected in all of code-wide Super crowd declines, Pay TV declines and, even more sharply, the embarrassingly hapless position of all the Australian S18 teams on the March 2017 Super points table.

The playing quality today of our professional rugby teams in total is mostly crap and thus we keep losing games over and over again to all expect very weak non-Aus teams, and our own teams.

Look at how the Brumbies are now playing, from a spectator perspective, it's chronically boring, limited, unexciting. Compare the woeful skill lapses and ridiculous penalty incurrence levels of the 2017 Reds vs the dazzling, coherent running play of their 2010-11 version that saw Brisbane as whole quickly come right back to rugby union. The Tahs had a 2-year surge to a short moment of greatness then more or less immediately lapsed back to old mediocrities and excuses. The Rebels are in their 7th season no less yet today cannot even win one match so far this season. The Force's crowds have been at non-viable levels for years now as their local RU elite (like many others on the East Coast) grossly botched managerial and coaching appointments over and over again resulting in a team that, sadly, never achieved anything real enough to enlarge its paying fan base.

It's blindingly obvious - our core problem is NOT format re-aligments and, say, more competitions with the Kiwis alone (wherein people conveniently forget we'd be decimated virtually every game with that the case as the Kiwi have improved just as much as we have degraded), and NRC turbo-charging and all such fancy variations on a dying theme.

Our core problem, and the related challenge, is how to do everything radical in deep change terms that is essential to ensure a far smaller number of professional Australian rugby teams can be well coached, the better-skilled players well selected and developed, and whereby the resulting teams can compete with others (principally the Kiwis) on an equal or near-equal footing based on a display of skills and fitness that enables a brand of as-played rugby that Australian crowds have shown, when it exists and consistently so, they can appreciate, enjoy and pay to watch (as was demonstrated by what Cheika and McKenzie so briefly enabled in the glorious glimmer years of 2010-12 and 2013-14).

Note above I consciously say 'far smaller number'. There can be no doubting that. The urgent revolution we need to get _real skills and consistent, attractive playing quality_ back into Australian professional rugby (and thus to forestall its decline into bankruptcy and irrevocable code death here) will never, ever arise from a volume of total professional playing days that way exceeds the essential skills and capabilities we realistically have at our disposal but will be only be enabled if we shrink back to place where we can assemble and focus the essential critical mass of coaches (some of which will need to be imported) and players we need to achieve the qualitative playing outcome improvements described above.

The idea that 'we must have 5 Super teams and let's kind of deny for now that it doesn't matter if most if not all play badly for yet more years on end' is more sentimental and emotional than it is in any way rational.

The notion that 'fixing' Australian rugby is all about overall format shuffling, new comps but with the same quantity of play days, 'only play the Kiwis', 'must get rugby back on FTA', and so on is a well-intentioned illusion that avoids the truly radical changes needed so to _systemically_ and, indeed, rapidly enough, fix the problems associated with the appalling decline in the standard of play and coaching in the Australian professional rugby playing system in its entirety.

This essential revolution will only commence with the complete reformation of the ARU's board and most of its management combined with similar actions at most State RU levels.

Australian rugby and its many code-loving and loyal fans have been grievously betrayed by its elite in one of the worst cases of disgraceful corporate self-indulgence, strategic neglect, poor conduct and raw incompetence ever witnessed within the conduct of a sport in this country......or anywhere for that matter.

We now know the consequences - and our own docile passivity as fans is partly to blame as there is no 'rise up' movement to be seen anywhere - and they can be denied no longer. There is little time left for effective action. Rugby's emerging death in Australia is now more likely than its revival.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Then again, my background happens to be in a large and successful professional sporting organisation.
And I know that the ARU are now, and have been for a long while, operating in a very difficult environment, with a lot of exogenous factors that impinge on their ability to achieve what we would all like to see achieved.

OK: by a process of elimination we know you never worked for the ARU. of course it suits a former sports administrator to say how difficult the job of sports administration is.
The exogenous factors we are generally prepared to forgive its the endogenous ones that keep us going: the cost to juniors of playing the game; the lack of financial support for the clubs - who given their volunteer status actually demonstrate more insight and imagination in just keeping them afloat than do the ARU; the $2m p.a. wasted on Folau and Pocock - in particular the latter given he is not even playing.
Thats a start for endogenous issues.
 
N

NTT

Guest
template



SPORThttp://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/john-oneill-tells-aru-to-stand-up-to-sanzaar/news-story/d6a9b391faa6c7f51e63aaa563875973

John O’Neill tells ARU to stand up to SANZAAR

Former ARU chief executive John O'Neill. Picture: Regi Varghese​
Former Australian Rugby Union powerbroker John O’Neill has insisted the ARU must stand up to SANZAAR and veto any proposal to jettison one Australian team from Super Rugby.
Although the ARU has denied media reports that the Western Force have been earmarked for eviction from Super Rugby if SANZAAR decides to scale back the competition from the current 18 team to 15, the almost certain reality is that the national union has fallen in with SANZAAR.
If broadcasters give approval for a reduced competition and South Africa vote to sacrifice two of their teams — almost certainly the Southern Kings and the Cheetahs — at their April 6 general assembly, then Australia would have to decide whether to stand up to SANZAAR or meekly fall into line and sacrifice one of its own franchises.
The Force have been identified as the prime target in media reports, but it is understood that the Brumbies remain on the endangered list. The Melbourne Rebels are rumoured to have escaped the gallows, primarily because, as a private equity club, it would be too expensive to get rid of them.
The ARU deliberately has chosen to be flexible throughout this process, to give it as much room to manoeuvre as possible, but the walls are beginning to close in and some hard decisions will soon have to be made.
Yet all indications are that Australia already has reached an in-principle agreement at the London meeting three weeks to cut one of its sides if the South Africans do, so any change now would involve a monumental backflip.
O’Neill, who stood down as CEO of the ARU in October 2012, insisted yesterday that the national union could not pass the buck to SANZAAR on the question of cutting or not cutting a team.
“The ARU is SANZAAR,” O’Neill said. “It’s an owner with veto powers. It’s their decision and if they don’t like what’s put up, then vote it down.
“If Australia loses a team and the ARU blames SANZAAR, then it’s a misrepresentation.”
Despite the best attempts of South African strongman Louis Luyt in the 1990s to set SANZAAR — or SANZAR as it then was, before the introduction of Argentina — it was in fact formed as a joint venture. Had it been a company, directors would have been obliged to act in the best interests of the company but a joint venture entitles “owners” to act in their own best interests.
The ARU has stated that its preferred position is to maintain all five teams but, as former Wallabies captain Phil Kearns said on Fox Sports, the ARU would need to “grow some cojones” to argue that Super Rugby remain at 18 teams or, more boldly still as O’Neill suggests, insists that all Australians teams remain and that the last three teams in — namely the Jaguares of Argentina, the Sunwolves of Japan and the Kings — be the first three out.
That would put Australia directly in opposition to the man who looks set to become the next World Rugby chairman, current deputy chairman Gus Pichot of Argentina.
Meanwhile, the cost — both in terms of people and money — of cutting the Force has come into focus with Bob McKinnon, chairman of the Future Force Fund, insisting that loyal backers who have personally funded the scheme to bring local WA players up to Super Rugby standards would simply walk away if the Force were jettisoned.
“I’ve been a rugby tragic since I was 10 but I would just walk away. So would so many others. And who could blame them?”
Currently rugby supporters give $500,000 a year in tax deductible donations to the Future Force Fund through the Australian Sports Foundation and the Force are hoping to raise that to $1 million annually to create a squad of 20 players. But all that money would be lost if the ARU abandoned the Perth club.
Breakaway Kane Koteka, on tour with the Force in New Zealand and preparing for Saturday’s match with the Blues in Auckland, was in the original Future Force intake of just four players in 2014.
“It’s a good thing they’ve done,” Koteka said of the FFF donors. “Because of them, they’ve given guys like me the chance to pursue our dreams. They’ve played a really big part in me getting to where I am.”
But Koteka said the whole Force squad was gripped by uncertainty and admitted that he and others were weighing up their options.
“I guess I would head overseas which is not good for the growth of the game in Australia. Heading overseas or interstate would be the options.
“It’s the uncertainty. You don’t know what the plan is for next year so I guess you’re always looking to see what’s out there and where you might potentially end up.”
That’s the danger. The Force are well on the way to having a highly competitive team, increasingly made up of locally-produced players thanks to the Future Force, but it could soon be scattered to the four winds.
 
N

NTT

Guest
I only wanted to highlight the Future Force bit and how much is actually funded locally and not by the ARU as some may assume.
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
I like that he said the ARU should call the NZRU's bluff. I've been saying this for a while. It's the best way to get a Trans-Tasman comp in the short term because a NZ/SA competition or regular season conference wouldn't work too well for NZ fans. The ARU should suggest if they're not willing to go to a Trans-Tasman regular season then they can have a SA/NZ conference and we'll run our our own conference with the Sunwolves and maybe another team or two in the Asia-Pacific. NZ could even split their teams among the primarily Australian and primarily South African conferences. Put the ball back in their court.

The ARU is in no position to tell the NZRU what to do, let alone play silly buggers. Like it or nor you are joined at the hip in this thing. No way the ARU is going to flex their muscles through the media and call the NZRU's bluff.

You need them as your ally.

Havign a divided ARU / NZRU is 100% what any negotiating broadcaster would want. Divide and conquer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top