Where to for Super Rugby?

[Omar Comin']

Club rugby is important, but is not and cannot be the main game feeding into the Wallabies. There must be something to replace or enhance the present Super competition. I do not think that should involve South Africa except at the national level for tests. I am more and more inclined to think we should go it alone but with an expanded competition, but I have no idea how that can be made to be professional which it needs to be.

I think the word 'club' can be more broadly defined than just amateur suburban clubs with multiple grades and juniors etc. The current super rugby sides are basically the rugby equivalent of the NRL and AFL clubs, so no reason they couldn't be the basis of a domestic club competition.

For example, you could have a Premiership division made up of 8 teams - the 4 Super Rugby sides plus the Force and 3 others, and then a 2nd National Championship division primarily made up of current Sydney and Brisbane premier clubs (those with the means and ambition to step up to semi-pro and potentially professional status), with promotion and relegation between the tiers. Beneath that you'd have the city or state based leagues and there could be some possibility of promotion and relegation between the regional level and national championship level.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

League isn't an issue IMO. The issue is the second stadium. Eden Park and Mt Smart are obviously taken, which means they'd either be sent to either Pukekohe or the Albany graveyard. Though Pukekohe should be on the Tron express, so may make it more accessible, and thus, more viable.

EDIT: Alternatively, you could go down the NFL route and have both teams play out of Eden Park. The residents association won't like it, which is a big plus.

Depending on how badly they're travelling the Warriors average anywhere between 11 & 18K home crowds. Fox Shield matches often draw better crowds than Auckland NPC home games (& those in turn generally draw more than NH, C-M or N'land). Sure there's some cross-over between codes but 95% of loig fans would drink bleach before going to a game of Union & probably 90% of Union fans feel the same way about loig. Then you've got the issue - at schools level for now but it'll surely grow as those kids get older - of soccer dominating rugby on the North Shore & basketball in South & West Auckland. If anything I reckon my estimate of 20-25% of the potential catchment having no interest in rugby (other than, in some cases, the AB's) is on the conservative side.

As for Eden Park, just bulldoze the fucking place already & flog the land off to any developers still standing after Covid. Use the cash to fund a proper stadium downtown or on the waterfront (umpteen hectares available when Winnie gets his way & Ports of Auckland become the Port of Northland). But no roof. Please no roof. Use the roof budget to make it a 40K stadium rather than a 30K one as CheeChee should've.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

I would imagine nearly every western Force game seeing has he has sponsored the 7 jersey pretty much from the start of their existence!
He's a massive Rugby fan.

Just noticed that yours was the 15,000th post on this thread & thought it should be acknowledged.

 

[eastman]

As that data and article shows, if we remove NZ from any proposed competition than you lose a significant NZ expat interest, who while not Waratahs fans, will watch an Aus derby with some interest knowing that it affects their chosen team. These guys are going to continue to watch rugby, but it will be the NZ comp and not this suggested Australian premiership. We need to commit completely for a TT comp with 4-6 Aus teams at the maximum- reduced salary cap and very limited restrictions of player movements.

As Reg has alluded there will be minimal commercial interest in a rebranded domestic comp where Sydney Uni play UQ in one semi final and Tuggeranong play Eastwood in the other.

 

[eastman]

One of these teams needs to be a Western Sydney team based out of Parramatta Stadium- the team that should have been introduced before Melbourne or Perth ever were added to Super Rugby.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

The only way a trans Tasman competition will ever work is open borders policy for wallaby and all black selection

 

[kiap]

One of these teams needs to be a Western Sydney team based out of Parramatta Stadium- the team that should have been introduced before Melbourne or Perth ever were added to Super Rugby.

Two things are needed before that could ever happen.

Investment money, obviously. But most critically it would have to be removed from the auspices of the NSWRU. You cannot have an incoming player forced to operate under the hegemony of the cross-town rival.

It would require the geographic border be redrawn and a direct seat at the top table.

 

[Omar Comin']

As that data and article shows, if we remove NZ from any proposed competition than you lose a significant NZ expat interest, who while not Waratahs fans, will watch an Aus derby with some interest knowing that it affects their chosen team. These guys are going to continue to watch rugby, but it will be the NZ comp and not this suggested Australian premiership. We need to commit completely for a TT comp with 4-6 Aus teams at the maximum- reduced salary cap and very limited restrictions of player movements.

The other possibility is that in a competition with no kiwi teams a lot of them pick a local team to support, as that's the rugby they get to watch live in prime time. Plenty of people would follow both competitions.

That said, I think a TT or Asia-Pacific competition is on balance the best option forward, but it might not be possible.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

The only way a trans Tasman competition will ever work is open borders policy for wallaby and all black selection

How do you propose that Strayan teams accommodate All Blacks within their salary cap? Or are you talking about an exchange of sub-international quality players (in which case why bother)? And are you seriously saying you'd be ok with Hooper swapping NSW for Auckland blue?

 

[hoggy]

As that data and article shows, if we remove NZ from any proposed competition than you lose a significant NZ expat interest, who while not Waratahs fans, will watch an Aus derby with some interest knowing that it affects their chosen team. These guys are going to continue to watch rugby, but it will be the NZ comp and not this suggested Australian premiership. We need to commit completely for a TT comp with 4-6 Aus teams at the maximum- reduced salary cap and very limited restrictions of player movements.

As Reg has alluded there will be minimal commercial interest in a rebranded domestic comp where Sydney Uni play UQ in one semi final and Tuggeranong play Eastwood in the other.

And the data also shows just how limiting it is attaching yourself to a structure that has little chance of growth.

So lets not encourage Sydney Uni, Eastwood or Tuggeranong, no lets attach ourselves to a team that has links to some NZ province like say Bay of Plenty, because heaven help us if those expat Kiwis don't watch.

 

[Slim 293]

And the data also shows just how limiting it is attaching yourself to a structure that has little chance of growth.

So lets not encourage Sydney Uni, Eastwood or Tuggeranong, no lets attach ourselves to a team that has links to some NZ province like say Bay of Plenty, because heaven help us if those expat Kiwis don't watch.

Clearly there is more interest in the Kiwi teams in Australia than some Sydney and Canberra suburban clubs that have no wider appeal.........

 

[Rugbynutter39]

How do you propose that Strayan teams accommodate All Blacks within their salary cap? Or are you talking about an exchange of sub-international quality players (in which case why bother)? And are you seriously saying you'd be ok with Hooper swapping NSW for Auckland blue?

Yeh I am - open borders with salary cap. I probably also would recommend limits to avoid Arsenal situation (ie no local players) It would also take preparedness for RA and NZRU to pay top ups for players playing in trans Tasman competition then own country - why would they do that - so not list to Europe and both benefit from more viable competition that attracts greater fan interest.

And yes difference is they get good young players but who then show potential don’t have to jump ship to play in nz to be eligible players. Only way trans Tasman competition will ever work imo.

I also think trans tasman includes other Asia pacific sides where same rules apply - this was what twiggy wanted for rapid rugby btw ie oz players playing for any team eligible for wallabies.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ nothing stopping Strayan Super Rugby clubs signing the players you describe right now but they don't. Why is that, do you think?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

^ nothing stopping Strayan Super Rugby clubs signing the players you describe right now but they don't. Why is that, do you think?

Couple of reasons - they know signing players if they do well will leave and head back to nz to be eligible for all blacks - few good examples there where that has happened

Second is restrictions by RA to have non oz players on books but if took open borders policy to even up sides and attract best players with salary cap would even up the field

Lastly opening borders would attract more private investors knowing within salary caps could compete for best players in region rather than just what is limited to country team resides in

This is no different to South Africa selecting players playing in overseas clubs where we instead limit it to just trans Tasman Asia pacific Comp to make the comp nz and oz players play in better and win win for both but whilst limited national team selection to playing in this comp to prevent cash rich Japan and European comps raiding our best players.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ struggling to think of any examples of (1), perhaps you could help me out & name some? Not sure what (2) even means but seriously doubt (3) private investors particularly give a shit where the talent comes from provided there's enough of it to keep the circus running.

 

[Joe King]

Super Rugby failed because it could never give us that domestic comp feel, exasperated by the fact that we see what NRL and AFL fans get to enjoy in this country every year. Super Rugby worked at first because the teams were like our traditional rep teams plus an exciting new ACT rep team, and every game felt like a SoO event. Over time however, we felt the lack of a domestic presence and we wanted more teams, and then we rejoiced at the suggestion of the conference system, but all the while SA and NZ never meant it to solve our domestic comp craving because they already had that sorted. Eventually we realised this and became too frustrated to bear Super Rugby anymore.

I actually think a TT comp will eventually frustrate Oz fans in the same way. There are problems if we have too many Oz teams in a TT comp, and there are problems if we have too few teams. But there are also problems if we just try and go with a stand alone NRC model.

However, if we had a revamped NRC with our test players available and a TT comp to follow, then there are lots of advantages:

• The TT comp would no longer need to fulfil that desire for a domestic comp experience in Oz. The NRC does the trick.
• The TT comp would only need to have 3 strong Oz teams to join NZ's 5, and we'd all still be happy. Because NRC. The TT comp would become the best vs the best again. Like the original S12.
• Our 3 teams could go back to acting like proper rep teams, and the TT comp could become like a SoO concept rather than a lengthy competition that tries to emulate a pseudo-domestic comp. Less is more. Every game is an event.
• It might be too risky to have a stand alone NRC, but with a short TT comp that demands revenue because it leaves fans wanting more of its intensity, we might be able to build the NRC and establish any new brand names without losing all our top players.

I have tried to outline a model like this, which I think will also suit NZ fans from an enjoyment perspective, and fit with NZR's goals and systems that have served them so well (because it needs to advantage NZ rugby as well). I also think it ends up a pretty good deal for the Sydney clubs as well.

Anyway, here it is. Have a look and then let me down gently.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/05/09/my-blueprint-for-australias-rugby-calendar/

 

[Dismal Pillock]

Tuggeranong

Please refrain from making up silly imaginary place names such as this. Some of the more gullible forum members are easily duped.

"Townsville"

LOL.

One born every minute.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

^ struggling to think of any examples of (1), perhaps you could help me out & name some? Not sure what (2) even means but seriously doubt (3) private investors particularly give a shit where the talent comes from provided there's enough of it to keep the circus running.

Mate so let me see Woodward, couple of props spring to mine who played for brumbies and rebels including Toby dude and guy who son of that famous league dude who played oz u20: as recent examples - I think you are not thinking that hard if you can’t see how this stops the flow and Nz have mortgage on greater talent pool and yes private investor more likely to buy a club where less restricted on talent available and for oz rugby sides competing against no sides in same comp definitely have smaller talent pool available then nz and know the answer is not let’s have only say 2 oz sides as again lose oz fan interest. We want locally based sides and don’t care where talent comes from and success of EPL proves that.

Should also add if we don’t have trans Tasman comp with nz with open borders policy I reckon we work towards something without nz long term as I just don’t see creating a viable even competition that creates enough fan interest.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Woodward? Who the fuck is Woodward? Toby Smith? Definition of journeyman (not that there's anything wrong with that, a journeyman being a skilled but itinerant worker). Lomax was always gunna choose NZ rugby if Strayan loig didn't work out.

 

[Slim 293]

Lomax was always gunna choose NZ rugby if Strayan loig didn't work out.

Eh? I don’t think he ever played league in Australia?

He was an ACT Rugby product........... St Edmunds, ACT U20’s, Aus U20’s, Canberra Vikings, Brumbies, Rebels.............

And then back to NZ.