Where to for Super Rugby?

[kiap]

Australia's negotiating position is fucked in terms of super rugby.

It sorta is

but

we have no plausible 2nd tier alternative to Super Rugby

We could see one emerge

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

The main reason a trans-Tasman comp is NZR's least-preferred option is the massive drop in tv rights revenue that would occur.

Spikhaza: I quite liked your earlier post but frankly your latest one is mostly rubbish, esp the attacks on NZR & Tew.

 

[kiap]

The NZRU is a nasty organisation.

Nasty? Maybe. Perhaps a tad harsh.

I would say ruthless; like their teams on the field. And they're in a relatively strong position right now.

NZR need to be a little careful however. New Zealand is a small place. Small market, small upside to that market.

They've been bullied before and it can happen again. With an ascendant NH, they'll eventually be looking for options.

Personally, I'm happy for NZ to bypass Australia and look towards South Africa and Argentina. Knock yerselves out cuz it won't last long.

 

[Set piece magic]

The main reason a trans-Tasman comp is NZR's least-preferred option is the massive drop in tv rights revenue that would occur.

I quite liked your earlier post but frankly this latest one is mostly rubbish, esp the attacks on NZR & Tew.

Righto then refute what the NZRU did with bug gate if that's the case. They got the information and deliberately released it on game day. Pulver said its release on game day was highly disappointing, given they had the information for most of the week.

If I was treated like that by a business partner I would tell them where to stick it, that is a rat fucking and a dirty trick I'd expect from Richard Nixon, not an associate, and it ought to do permanent damage to the relationship between Rugby AU and the NZRU - I would not trust Steve Tew and I stand by the comment.

Talking TV revenue for a second - SA contributes the most and then this is redistributed somewhat, kinda like a progressive income tax. But there's certainly a case to be made that playing the games in SA depresses the value of the rest of them - because you lose momentum from those midnight games - so I'm just not convinced the 3 country system does have the most revenue.

 

[wamberal]

The Keewees have never forgiven us for "stealing" the rights to host the 2003 RWC.

 

[kiap]

The Keewees have never forgiven us for "stealing" the rights to host the 2003 RWC.

Could be. Their custodians back then were, frankly, incompetent (perhaps like ours generally - and particularly now eh, Wambers?)

The kick up the arse World Rugby delivered turned the Kiwis around, though, and they picked their game up since.

 

[sunnyboys]

RE: Trans-tasman comp. Any upside for this comp would be from significantly increasing Australian viewers, crowds and broadcast dollars. I'm not at all surprised NZR dont want to take a punt on that path.

The only thing that could make it viable is overseas broadcast dollars. the kiwis and (remarkably!) us are still a drawcard in foreign lands. but it would have to be a big broadcast deal to make up for SA.

 

[dru]

Nasty? Maybe. Perhaps a tad harsh.

I would say ruthless; like their teams on the field. And they're in a relatively strong position right now.

NZR need to be a little careful however. New Zealand is a small place. Small market, small upside to that market.

They've been bullied before and it can happen again. With an ascendant NH, they'll eventually be looking for options.

Personally, I'm happy for NZ to bypass Australia and look towards South Africa and Argentina. Knock yerselves out cuz it won't last long.

This.

We pussy foot with Super presuming we have no authority (well not "we" but RA) to our own detriment. Super is sitting on a very readable and negative trend, a trend that is hitting Australia harder than NZ right now but even the mighty Kiwi can see the writing on the wall. NZRU have plenty of crocodile tears for Australia as they demonstrate nil interest in allowing a professional game that meets Australian requirements.

We reach a no lose point where stepping out not only becomes the smart thing to do but ultimately the way we are going it will be forced on us anyway. And then Knock yerselves out cuz it won't last long.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

The Keewees have never forgiven us for "stealing" the rights to host the 2003 RWC.

Bullshit. After that particular shambles there was a clean out at Board level & the CEO walked or was fired depending on your you listen to. There's no one currently involved with running the game who was there in 2003. If anything there's a heap of people at NZR who owe Possum Head their job/ position.

Righto then refute what the NZRU did with bug gate if that's the case. They got the information and deliberately released it on game day. Pulver said its release on game day was highly disappointing, given they had the information for most of the week.

If I was treated like that by a business partner I would tell them where to stick it, that is a rat fucking and a dirty trick I'd expect from Richard Nixon, not an associate, and it ought to do permanent damage to the relationship between Rugby AU and the NZRU - I would not trust Steve Tew and I stand by the comment.

Talking TV revenue for a second - SA contributes the most and then this is redistributed somewhat, kinda like a progressive income tax. But there's certainly a case to be made that playing the games in SA depresses the value of the rest of them - because you lose momentum from those midnight games - so I'm just not convinced the 3 country system does have the most revenue.

Didn't the bug thing become public when an Australian journo approached AB management on Friday for comment on a story due to appear Saturday morning? Whatever, it has fuck all to do with Super Rugby anyway.

NZR (& I would assume RA) have taken various post-Super Rugby scenarios to the broadcasters & found that no-one is willing to pay anything like as much for a comp with no SA/ Euro time zone content as they will for one with that content. Tew talks about the NZ/ SA tradition but as I've said many times before on here, show him the money & he'll say Fuck the tradition, [insert name of comp] is the future & we need to be part of it.

As I've also said many times on here, you simply cannot create even one extra Super Rugby-level pro team in NZ without crippling at least one of the existing ones. Five teams works for us. Why would NZR do something they know ain't gunna work & may bankrupt them?

There's enough blame for the current state of Super Rugby to go around, I just think it's ridiculous to try to apportion some of ARU's share to NZR.

 

[dru]

There's enough blame for the current state of Super Rugby to go around, I just think it's ridiculous to try to apportion some of ARU's share to NZR.

That’s fair enough, WoB. If anything NZRU are the most guilt free over the Super status and trend - though they share joint culpability for the scheduling and conference excesses.

The issue here is Australian in that what is required for a successful pro game, using a loose benchmark of the fan base as a measure of success, can not be accommodated in a Super system that the NZRU want. Doesn’t make NZRU evil or culpable. That is the responsibility of RA.

But it does raise hackles with the few Aus fans who are left.

 

[wamberal]

Could be. Their custodians back then were, frankly, incompetent (perhaps like ours generally - and particularly now eh, Wambers?)
.

Bit of a broken record old chap.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

That’s fair enough, WoB. If anything NZRU are the most guilt free over the Super status and trend - though they share joint culpability for the scheduling and conference excesses.

The issue here is Australian in that what is required for a successful pro game, using a loose benchmark of the fan base as a measure of success, can not be accommodated in a Super system that the NZRU want. Doesn’t make NZRU evil or culpable. That is the responsibility of RA.

But it does raise hackles with the few Aus fans who are left.

Each & every SANZAAR partner is equally guilty. Any of them could've vetoed various things at various times but didn't in order, as far as i can see, to not upset the other partners. Total cluster fuck & IMO it doesn't really matter if the blame is 40/30/30 or 35/35/30 it remains a cluster fuck & finger-pointing achieves nothing.

As someone once observed, when you point the finger 'cos your plans fell through you've got three more fingers pointing back at you.

 

[hoggy]

That’s fair enough, WoB. If anything NZRU are the most guilt free over the Super status and trend - though they share joint culpability for the scheduling and conference excesses.

The issue here is Australian in that what is required for a successful pro game, using a loose benchmark of the fan base as a measure of success, can not be accommodated in a Super system that the NZRU want. Doesn’t make NZRU evil or culpable. That is the responsibility of RA.

But it does raise hackles with the few Aus fans who are left.

And the few fans left is apt. All partners are equally guilty the endless pursuit of revenue without ever dealing with the consequences of the cost of that revenue will haunt the game here for a long time.

Make no mistake Super rugby has essentially ensured the game here has no chance of ever competing with the other codes for genuine market share.

Simply put the top down nature of the game in Australia has ensured its survival, those few that benefit from it will ensure it continues regardless of the cost to the games popularity, at what stage the whole thing collapses is about the only thing left to speculate.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

RE: Trans-tasman comp. Any upside for this comp would be from significantly increasing Australian viewers, crowds and broadcast dollars. I'm not at all surprised NZR dont want to take a punt on that path.

The only thing that could make it viable is overseas broadcast dollars. the kiwis and (remarkably!) us are still a drawcard in foreign lands. but it would have to be a big broadcast deal to make up for SA.

In order for it to work it would require significant restructure of how the game is run this country.

 

[hoggy]

In order for it to work it would require significant restructure of how the game is run this country.

And that restructure is the only thing that can save the game here.

 

[RugbyReg]

The Fiji Rugby Union has today confirmed that it had on behalf of itself, the Tonga and Samoa Rugby Unions submitted a bid for a Pacific Island Super Rugby Franchise to be based in Fiji to SANZAAR on the 30th of June 2018 in compliance with the bid timelines.

The CEO of FRU confirmed that SANZAAR had acknowledged the bid and was impressed with the quality and professionalism of the bid considering the short time duration provided to put the bid together.

FRU CEO Mr. John O’Connor also highlighted that after several rounds of meetings and discussions with SANZAAR and submissions of other required documentations, SANZAAR on the 28th of August 2018 had informed FRU that the bid was unsuccessful.

SANZAAR determined that requirements around defined Key Performance Criteria including an ability to deliver a commercial uplift in both broadcasting and guaranteed underwrite would render the viability of a Pacific Super Team under the proposed SANZAAR commercial model unsustainable

Both the Tonga Rugby Union and the Samoa Rugby Union have been advised of the outcome of the Bid.

Mr. O’Connor highlighted that the FRU had initial preliminary discussions with Mr. Richard Fale who had also submitted a bid for a Pacific Team to be based in the USA and to play most of its home games in Hawaii and USA. However, the FRU did not support the Bid since it proposed to initially use Pacific Island players who were not eligible to play for the three Island Nations, players who had already played for the All Blacks, Australia, England and other Nations.

The FRU has not engaged nor offered support for the Bid that has been circulating via the social media which is seeking the support of Dwayne Johnson.

FRU is committed to seeking pathways for our players but will not render our support to any bid which does not support giving opportunities for players who are eligible to represent the three Pacific Islands.

 

[Joe Blow]

no money and a limited tv audience

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

no money and a limited tv audience

On the Islands. Yes. But in places like Australia and NZ they could be enough of a draw card to cover the difference. Certainly more so than the Sunwolves and Jaguares in our market considering we have the largest Fijian community in the world outside Fiji itself.

Anyway, this explains why they've popped up in GRR.

 

[Joe King]

There will be 22 weeks to fill. So Australia could always pull out and then offer to play the NZ teams in a separate competition.

NZ would be left with SA and Arg. They could play a round robin over 9 weeks with the top two playing in a final = 10 weeks. Then a week off = 11 weeks.

At the same time Australia could play in a revamped NRC comp:
Brumbies
Rebels
Force
2x teams from NSW
2x teams from Qld
Possibly Dura/Sunwolves

Again, a simple round robin with the top two playing in a final. Short, sharp, and everything on the line, every game. Excitement plus!

At the conclusion of these two comps, Australia enters 3 origin-style teams to play against the 5 NZ teams:
NSW Waratahs
Qld Reds
Some sort of combined states team (Brumbies, Rebels, Force)

A round robin, with semis and a final = 9 weeks.

Overall, we’ve managed to fill up 20 weeks.

NZ get what they want: round robins only, to play the SA teams, and have each of their Super Rugby teams playing 8 home games and 8 away games.

Australia get time-zone friendly games only, their own top tier domestic comp, competition against NZ’s best, and a new state of origin feel to the Trans-Tasman Super Rugby. Australia lose a little revenue, but not as much as a complete withdrawal. And Australia get the chance to win some fans to the game, which could increase revenue in the long run.


SA and Arg lose out a bit and may need to rethink what they do after their comp with NZ. SA may even look to Europe, in which case NZ will be sad for a bit.

 

[Rebels3]

I'm still firmly of the belief we will end up with a Trans-Tasman competition potentially with 11 team Aus/NZ competition with maybe the 11th team being from the Pacific. It might not be this broadcast deal or even the next, but in 10/15years its what i believe we will have. 20 rounds play every one twice. Its effective, simple to understand and more importantly engages the audience every week.

SAF will go north.
Argentina will focus on the incoming South American pro league, with regular competition against US and Canadian pro teams.
Japan will withdraw back into just the top league