Where to for Super Rugby?

[wamberal]

It is remarkably easy to write stuff like that, Growden did it all the time. Nobody is willing to explore the real issues. Just send some reporters out into the field and ask the public at large what they know, or think, about rugby.


How would that go in Melbourne, Hoggy? What percentage of the population even knows that there are two rugby codes?

 

[wamberal]

If grassroots spending is $3.7 million and Folau/Coopers salary combined $1.6 million would it not be close to a %50 rise. Whatever way you do the figures, it highlights just how broke the whole thing is

There is a shedload more than that spent on grass roots rugby. By the grass roots, which is, frankly, the way that it should be. Any rugby lover who does not support his or her local club does not understand what made this game great. Once upon a time. We can all sit back and demand that some magician somewhere start pulling rabbits out of hats, but, guess what? There are no magicians, and no magic hats.

 

[hoggy]

There is a shedload more than that spent on grass roots rugby. By the grass roots, which is, frankly, the way that it should be. Any rugby lover who does not support his or her local club does not understand what made this game great. Once upon a time. We can all sit back and demand that some magician somewhere start pulling rabbits out of hats, but, guess what? There are no magicians, and no magic hats.

"The amount given to ‘‘Community Rugby’’ was $3.7 million" This was from the RA report. The whole point is without accepting that you have a problem, how can you start fixing it.

We have spent a massive amount of money on rugby in this country and what has been the return. I lived in Melbourne for 15 years and played rugby there, was a Rebels foundation member, yet for all that money i just wonder if you had taken 1-10th of it and invested at the club level, maybe you would have a few more people that knew the difference from Rugby League.

Your right there are no magicians or magic hats, but just continuing to do the same thing, well.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

"The amount given to ‘‘Community Rugby’’ was $3.7 million" This was from the RA report. The whole point is without accepting that you have a problem, how can you start fixing it.

We have spent a massive amount of money on rugby in this country and what has been the return. I lived in Melbourne for 15 years and played rugby there, was a Rebels foundation member, yet for all that money i just wonder if you had taken 1-10th of it and invested at the club level, maybe you would have a few more people that knew the difference from Rugby League.

Your right there are no magicians or magic hats, but just continuing to do the same thing, well.

That's the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing time and time again but expecting different results.

 

[hoggy]

It is remarkably easy to write stuff like that, Growden did it all the time. Nobody is willing to explore the real issues. Just send some reporters out into the field and ask the public at large what they know, or think, about rugby.

In all seriousness, Wamberal what do you think are some of the answers.

 

[Quick Hands]

It is remarkably easy to write stuff like that, Growden did it all the time. Nobody is willing to explore the real issues. Just send some reporters out into the field and ask the public at large what they know, or think, about rugby.


How would that go in Melbourne, Hoggy? What percentage of the population even knows that there are two rugby codes?

Regardless of what the"real issues" are, the game cannot continue to spend more that in earns.

No matter what spin RA and their supporters put on it, they can't escape the mathematics of it.

 

[Quick Hands]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...e-gamble-is-falling-flat-20180413-p4z9es.html

It is a depressing article one that highlights to me that ultimately without the whole thing collapsing or some sort of revolution happens, nothing is going to change, because those very people at the top are the ones who directly benefit from this system.

Unfortnately hoggy, I think you're 100% correct. The people benefiting from the way the money is spent are going to resist change for as long as possible. Therefore the only way out is cataclysmic failure and bankruptcy - and we're well on the way to both.

 

[hoggy]

Unfortnately hoggy, I think you're 100% correct. The people benefiting from the way the money is spent are going to resist change for as long as possible. Therefore the only way out is cataclysmic failure and bankruptcy - and we're well on the way to both.

I honestly don't believe that those in charge don't have the interests of rugby at heart, but I think the top down set up of the game here ultimately prevents any genuine change from occurring. The very nature of trickle down economics is the problem.

The biggest issue to me is the lack of cut through that Super rugby is capable of achieving, the ultimate benefit this level of the game needs to do is create interest for the grassroots level to prosper. If you look at the other codes AFL/NRL they create the interest for the lower level to feed off. To me this is the major issue we face, regardless of money or success, if we cannot create a level of interest at junior & grassroots level for the game to prosper. Then surely the question to be asked is what does all this money achieve.

 

[Quick Hands]

I honestly don't believe that those in charge don't have the interests of rugby at heart, but I think the top down set up of the game here ultimately prevents any genuine change from occurring. The very nature of trickle down economics is the problem.

The biggest issue to me is the lack of cut through that Super rugby is capable of achieving, the ultimate benefit this level of the game needs to do is create interest for the grassroots level to prosper. If you look at the other codes AFL/NRL they create the interest for the lower level to feed off. To me this is the major issue we face, regardless of money or success, if we cannot create a level of interest at junior & grassroots level for the game to prosper. Then surely the question to be asked is what does all this money achieve.

An even bigger problem is that by the time that those at the top have finished, there's nothing left to trickle anywhere. Super rugby loses more than it makes for the game in Australia.

Super rugby is a dead duck. It served a purpose for a while and for the first 5-10 years was of general benefit to rugby in Australia. For most of the last decade though it's failing us on almost every level. Not only doesn't it make money to trickle down, but it costs more for us to run our teams than we make. So it's a negative in terms of funding. It's become almost impossible for even rusted on supporters to follow with teams flying between continents playing games in time zones which make it impossible to watch for potential supporters. So it's a negative in terms of growing interest in the game. Combine those two points and it also prevents the next level down in Australia from growing stronger.

 

[hoggy]

An even bigger problem is that by the time that those at the top have finished, there's nothing left to trickle anywhere. Super rugby loses more than it makes for the game in Australia.

Super rugby is a dead duck. It served a purpose for a while and for the first 5-10 years was of general benefit to rugby in Australia. For most of the last decade though it's failing us on almost every level. Not only doesn't it make money to trickle down, but it costs more for us to run our teams than we make. So it's a negative in terms of funding. It's become almost impossible for even rusted on supporters to follow with teams flying between continents playing games in time zones which make it impossible to watch for potential supporters. So it's a negative in terms of growing interest in the game. Combine those two points and it also prevents the next level down in Australia from growing stronger.

I agree Super rugby has to end, it will simply drag the game to oblivion if it continues. The question is what can we replace it with, firstly I think we have to accept the financial reality that comes with it.

The Wallabies will have to be picked from overseas, we will never be able to compete with wages. I personally would like to go purely domestic, to many compromises with a trans Tasman league, and the Kiwis aren't interested.

A domestic league with 8-10 teams from March on-wards, and private money needs to come in, this is when people like Forest come in. An option worth looking at would champion leagues style games with o/s opposition, but from a domestic base.

But reality is were looking at budgets of what maybe 2/4 million a team, and accepting what that brings with it.
Grassroots money, well highly unlikely that can increase as the money will not be there. And that $17million RA corp expense, that's slashed.
In the end a pretty big reality check, but only then do i think you can start growing the game, a step back to move forward.

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree Super rugby has to end, it will simply drag the game to oblivion if it continues. The question is what can we replace it with, firstly I think we have to accept the financial reality that comes with it.

The Wallabies will have to be picked from overseas, we will never be able to compete with wages. I personally would like to go purely domestic, to many compromises with a trans Tasman league, and the Kiwis aren't interested.

A domestic league with 8-10 teams from March on-wards, and private money needs to come in, this is when people like Forest come in. An option worth looking at would champion leagues style games with o/s opposition, but from a domestic base.

But reality is were looking at budgets of what maybe 2/4 million a team, and accepting what that brings with it.
Grassroots money, well highly unlikely that can increase as the money will not be there. And that $17million RA corp expense, that's slashed.
In the end a pretty big reality check, but only then do i think you can start growing the game, a step back to move forward.

Agree, an 8 team domestic competition is the way to go. If planning was to start now and broadcasters, sponsors etc. were consulted during the planning stage there would be a much higher chance of attracting money.

TV networks want content in prime time that will attract viewers. Super rugby is played in prime time at best 50% of the time. An 8 team domestic league means a 7.30pm game every Friday and Saturday and possibly/probably a Sunday game as well.

No need to negotiate with other countries over the draw, much more attactive to sponsors, much more likely to attract local fans (including new ones) and much stronger links to the grass roots.

And yes, short term there will be some pain - but done properly this would be minimised. My big fear is that it won't be done properly because all the vested interests don't want it to happen, so there won't be a plan B (domestic league) properly planned and if it's done it will be half-arsed thrown together at the last minute style so typical of rugby administrators in Australia.

 

[flat_eric]

At what point does Australian rugby bottom out and decide to hit the reset button? Would it take another winless season against the Kiwis and unsuccessful national campaign to really put the squeeze on finances and push RA to the point of no return? Business-as-usual is looking less and less likely to manufacture anything other than an unsatisfying extension of the inevitable.

I reckon we're not far off our own version of the Australian soccer moment, where the governing body was forced to hit the reset button on the domestic competition to save itself from extinction. It worked relatively well, and led to 10 years of sustainable growth. Admittedly the competition has stagnated more recently, but they're in the enviable position of expanding the league to reignite interest, while rugby's solution is to withdraw.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that a similar revolution is the only way forward.

 

[Gnostic]

At what point does Australian rugby bottom out and decide to hit the reset button? Would it take another winless season against the Kiwis and unsuccessful national campaign to really put the squeeze on finances and push RA to the point of no return? Business-as-usual is looking less and less likely to manufacture anything other than an unsatisfying extension of the inevitable.



I reckon we're not far off our own version of the Australian soccer moment, where the governing body was forced to hit the reset button on the domestic competition to save itself from extinction. It worked relatively well, and led to 10 years of sustainable growth. Admittedly the competition has stagnated more recently, but they're in the enviable position of expanding the league to reignite interest, while rugby's solution is to withdraw.



The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that a similar revolution is the only way forward.

At no point other than total collapse will the management of rugby hit a reset button that will effectively end their prime position at the cash trough. That should have been made clear over the last twenty years but especially reinforced since JON MKII ensured he was paid out despite the shambles he created, and most recently the appointment of Phil Waugh to the board.

I am honestly at the point where there is little of worth to lose if the ARU goes arse up. We have four uncompetitive Super Rugby sides that demonstrate appalling skills for "professional" players, we have coaches who have failed to improve those skills yet continue to be appointed to position after position like Foley, Graham, McGahan, Larkham and Grey.

The real time to save the game in AUstralia at a Pro level was back in 2010-2011. The Reds produced special rugby and had a base to do it and the old boys network effectively squandered that potential inside 3 years.

We have a club game that has some great attendances and player numbers, it will be there when the pro level is gone in this current iteration, what replaces it and who replaces the incompetence and cronies of the ARU is the real question.

 

[half]

Those who fear moving away from Super Rugby HHHHMMMMmm rRRrrrgggg well hhhrrrr not trying to insult but just maybe they cannot see whats before them.

The Hunter / Newcastle greater population of 634 K with roughly 440 K in Newcastle.

The NSW Central Coast has a population of 350K. Between them close enough to one million people.

Both areas are earmarked for population growth and 1.4 million is possible with 20 years.

Here are the links to the Unions in these areas. Both Unions enjoy considerable support.

This is where our new teams will come from. Areas like this far removed from Moore Park and Concord Oval or Mac Bank Oval whatever you wanta call it.

Newcastle Union. http://nhru.com.au/

Central coast Union. http://www.centralcoastrugby.com.au/

 

[hoggy]

Those who fear moving away from Super Rugby HHHHMMMMmm rRRrrrgggg well hhhrrrr not trying to insult but just maybe they cannot see whats before them.

The Hunter / Newcastle greater population of 634 K with roughly 440 K in Newcastle.

The NSW Central Coast has a population of 350K. Between them close enough to one million people.

Both areas are earmarked for population growth and 1.4 million is possible with 20 years.

Here are the links to the Unions in these areas. Both Unions enjoy considerable support.

This is where our new teams will come from. Areas like this far removed from Moore Park and Concord Oval or Mac Bank Oval whatever you wanta call it.

Newcastle Union. http://nhru.com.au/

Central coast Union. http://www.centralcoastrugby.com.au/

The big issue facing the code is how do you tap into these areas especially when your professional set up is so alienated from them. Kids aren't going to follow the Wallabies when they don't know rugby exists or don't see rugby as a viable sporting path.

 

[wamberal]

Those who fear moving away from Super Rugby HHHHMMMMmm rRRrrrgggg well hhhrrrr not trying to insult but just maybe they cannot see whats before them.

The Hunter / Newcastle greater population of 634 K with roughly 440 K in Newcastle.

The NSW Central Coast has a population of 350K. Between them close enough to one million people.

Both areas are earmarked for population growth and 1.4 million is possible with 20 years.

Here are the links to the Unions in these areas. Both Unions enjoy considerable support.

This is where our new teams will come from. Areas like this far removed from Moore Park and Concord Oval or Mac Bank Oval whatever you wanta call it.

And yet, the Wildfires venture was an abysmal failure, mainly because of infighting between Maitland and Newcastle. 200 spectators, and one sponsor.


As for the Central Coast, I was there when the ARC was launched. It was going to be huge!!! We rocked up to the first home game at Bluetongue. The place was virtually deserted. I also remember when Singo tried a pretty good idea, getting Gordon to play home games at Bluetongue. That flopped.


Sorry to say this, but it is a bit like a cargo cult. The population is growing, so rugby will thrive!!!!


Newcastle was a founding member of the NSWRFL, always has been a loig stronghold. And yet until the virtual takeover by Wests Club, they have struggled financially.


As for the Central Coast, when will the NRL finally put a team there? Never.


If the leaguies cannot prosper in this region, why on earth would we?

 

[half]

OK hhhhmmmm puts on helmet and awaits the belts.

Today I opened the SMH rugby sports page 5 articles, 1 article from Englanf and 4 articles about Folau.

I also opened the Newcastle Herald rugby page. Wow 9 articles on local rugby covering two rounds with each article a bout 400 to 500 words about the local games.

The Hunter / Newcastle down and if you add the Central coast thats ONE million people in a well established rugby area with great media support from the Newcastle Herald, and NBN the local FTA TV network.

Some context to see what I mean, written over the weekend competition. BTW no Super Rugby articles if you get my drift and I hope you do with ONE million people no one reports on Super Rugby. But they do report on rugby.

Hopefully some will see what I am driving at. Please open the links and enjoy reading about the game.

Newcastle Hunter Rugby Union: Lake Macquarie Roos thrashed 121-3 by Nelson Bay Gropers

https://www.theherald.com.au/story/5343017/roos-suffer-horror-loss/?cs=306

Newcastle Rugby: Greens, Blacks, Gropers and Beaches triumph in dramatic round

https://www.theherald.com.au/story/...tart-with-win-over-premiers-hamilton/?cs=6162

Newcastle Rugby: Dane Sherratt hopes to fly behind Hamilton pack

https://www.theherald.com.au/story/...tt-hopes-to-fly-behind-hamilton-pack/?cs=6162

Newcastle Rugby: Greens take on Kokoda Track in name of charity

https://www.theherald.com.au/story/...-kokoda-adventure-in-name-of-charity/?cs=6162

and a couple more for the fun of it.

NHRU: Merewether debutant follows different path to Two Blues father

https://www.theherald.com.au/story/...s-different-path-to-two-blues-father/?cs=6162

NHRU: Hamilton still team to beat but Maitland, Beaches and Merewether closing the gap


https://www.theherald.com.au/story/...aches-and-merewether-closing-the-gap/?cs=6162

 

[Slim 293]

OK hhhhmmmm puts on helmet and awaits the belts.

Today I opened the SMH rugby sports page 5 articles, 1 article from Englanf and 4 articles about Folau.

I also opened the Newcastle Herald rugby page. Wow 9 articles on local rugby covering two rounds with each article a bout 400 to 500 words about the local games.

The Hunter / Newcastle down and if you add the Central coast thats ONE million people in a well established rugby area with great media support from the Newcastle Herald, and NBN the local FTA TV network.

Some context to see what I mean, written over the weekend competition. BTW no Super Rugby articles if you get my drift and I hope you do with ONE million people no one reports on Super Rugby. But they do report on rugby.

Hopefully some will see what I am driving at. Please open the links and enjoy reading about the game.

Yes, wow..... the Newcastle Herald website only lists local Rugby Union stories in their 'Rugby Union' section, with every other rugby article listed under 'National Sport.'

Their soccer section is almost identical, except that they do have an A-League team...........

I can only assume that the thing you're driving at is that two different media outlets, one regional and one metro, categorise their sports sections quite differently?

 

[dru]

^^^ No. I dont think that’s what he was driving at.

 

[Braveheart81]

Local papers report on local issues. That's how they work. They don't employ a whole bunch of people to replicate material that is being written elsewhere. Most of the local papers are owned by News Corp so they share material up and down between their websites when they think it is relevant.