Where to for Super Rugby?

[PaarlBok]

Putting this kind of comment out there smacks of 'I told you so mentality' and pretty juvenile. We get it, you're super smart and we're all dummies.

As for the newbie comment in regards to Killer, us Force fans have our own very active forum. Most of us, including myself, would lurk here and there but mostly stick to ourselves on our own forum.

I am old school not super smart at all.

I am over the S18 since they change the S12 format.

I'd like to see the SA teams playing up north out of season and only play CC and long tours like we had.

The S18 is shite. There is no more money to make there. If SS pull the plug, its dead.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Australia use the last in , first out ruling.

SA use the merit ruling.

Strange.

Err no rebels were last in... suggest you are not up with this


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[Sully]

I agree that the whole expansion from 15 to 18 teams was pushed by South Africa. Australia and New Zealand didn't get extra teams or a free ride into the finals SA did.

 

[TOCC]

The expansion to 18 teams seemed like a very positive thing, especially after the success of Argentina and Japan in RWC 2015.....

But the format that has been arranged is bollocks (SA teams not playing any NZ teams, Japan in the SA conference, 2 SA conferences etc), and interest in the competition has dramatically fallen off....

Now is the time for a proper shake up of the format - reducing a few teams isn't going to do much.

That's the issue... initially it appeared to be a good idea... but then SANZAAR presented a convicted system of conferences and bias draws which saw some teams have easier runs then others

 

[Killer]

There's likely no penalties.

But the invitation for next year will be for 4 Australian teams in a 15 team comp with an agreed split of broadcast money.

To change that will require unanimous agreement from all 4 SANZAAR nations. Would they do it, what concessions they will require from the ARU and what can the ARU do if they don't? Who knows?

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maybe, maybe not? the wording is, paraphrasing, "Australia will provide at least 4 teams"
This is what the argument is about re the amended Broadcast Agreement in relation to cancelling the Alliance Agreement. Five teams is at least 4 teams.

Clearly you could interpret this, if you wanted to, that SANZAAR is open to other variations to making up the 15 or more teams.

Aus has veto rights, we just need some balls to make decisions favourable to our rugby. We now have a benefactor, if they move fast, to backstop whatever we do as long as it is good for the national game.

Obviously Clyne is not thinking of Aus rugby, just himself.

 

[Killer]

As an example, if the sunwolves make way for the force, who do you reckon will have to cop most of the loss of Japanese broadcasting fees?

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Why?
Business doesn't work like that, we find a way that is beneficial to all.
We are only limited by our imagination.

 

[andrewM]

As for the newbie comment in regards to Killer, us Force fans have our own very active forum. Most of us, including myself, would lurk here and there but mostly stick to ourselves on our own forum.

And what a great get together we had last night at JB O'Reilly's!

 

[ForceFan]

Some useful background information/comments supplied by John Edwards, WF Board Member in response to current happenings (this was posted on the TWF supporters blog):
“They (EARU – FF (Folau Fainga'a) clarification) are certainly not checking in the rear view mirror. Key take outs for me from the ARU response to Andrew Forrest’s accusation are:
“Rugby WA provided several opportunities to put its best business case forward”
• After the Clarke/Day “axe” the Force presentation in Perth we requested the details behind the summarised “scenarios” they modelled that determined why they were leaning towards axing the Force. This was never provided (the infamous “Spreadsheet”)
• They also did not complete the “rugby program” comparison presentation at the meeting preferring to cut to the chase and tell us that the decision was overwhelmingly “Financial” and we “did quite well” on the non-financial metrics.
• We did not put forward any case immediately after that meeting as we were never given the Terms of Reference by which we were being measured. We also felt that as they effectively owned the Club whatever we put forward would be discredited.
• We also believed that we had a robust Alliance Agreement in place and that we were “partners”
• Down the track a little we prepared a range of scenarios for the ARU based on various inputs such as:
o Historical financial and match day data
o Own the Force funding outcomes
o Cost to repurchase the license ($800k)
o Road Safety sponsorship probabilities
o Team success/Bums on seats
o Other sponsorship/ corporates
• This review produced detailed high ,low and probable business outcomes around the buy- back opportunity in the Alliance Agreement and these were presented to the ARU in much finer detail than anything they provided to us.
• Following this and in response to letters from the ARU terminating our Alliance (pre Arbitration) and at their request, we presented an update of how we saw the Financial stability of the Force post 2017 in a buy back outcome .This was thrown back in our face on the basis that:
o We have not fully funded the Own the Force campaign (Notwithstanding that the impediment to this was the ARU themselves)
o The Government had not signed the Road Safety sponsorship extension (true but et Government had given strong enough indications and we had/have a backup plan)
o The Government was putting conditions on the $4mm Bledisloe advance that they were not prepared to accept.(What they wanted was an option on future unallocated Internationals).
o Andrew Forrest’s Own the Force underwriting had no guarantees and basically they did not rate him or his promise.
• Showing extreme patience we answered each of their criticisms in detail and still they batted us out of the park stating that the “Offer was not in a Form that could be accepted”
• All of the above plus a multitude of calls and emails in the “Good Faith” demanded under the terms of the Alliance agreement happened BEFORE the Arbitrator handed his pro ARU decision down . Each letter asked them to engage with us/Andrew and work out a win /win solution. Clearly we tried but they were just not prepared to engage. Minds were made up.
• Of course the big question is , over the course of this debacle were the Rebels at any time asked to put forward THEIR Business Case and I’d suggest that answer is no because they were never really at risk and Clarke had told them they were safe (remember that was in the press too and Cox was quoted).
“Once the VRU bought back the Rebels license Clyne said the ARU’s Hands were tied”
You all know that the “bait and switch” of Cox selling the Company. Transferring the License happened after the ARU reacted to press rumours and stated categorically that “the license could not be transferred without the ARU’s written approval”. When it actually happened a few days later for the princely price of $1 there was again a public statement by the ARU that this was not legal and that they would be immediately and urgently looking into it. At that point Andrew called Clyne and suggested to him that this was his opportunity to revoke the Rebels license and get the 4 team outcome that the ARU so desperately wanted. For a brief moment we thought we were safe and had won . So what happened after that:
• It seems that they pretended to look into it but like all these events this was swept under the carpet and never mentioned again.
• The next step was the so called Vic Government support to the tune of $20mm which is based arounf revenue from International fixtures and which still remains in the shadows and no one seems to be really owning up to the question of who is actually paying and how much:
o If it’s the Vic Government are they effectively paying a higher price than $5mm for a Bledisloe (the figure WA is paying) and if so are they paying the incremental cost to the VRU or the ARU?
o Who is paying the VRU? If it is the Government then one would think that this is rather unprecedented and the other codes in Melbourne might be asking for their share.
o My theory is that the Vic Government is paying the standard $5mm to the ARU and the ARU is paying the 20% to the Rebels which is effectively reducing the amount that they can distribute to Grass Roots and/or the other States and once again Melbourne is getting a handout no one else is getting. I could be wrong but it could certainly be “managed” in the ARU financials that way.
o I stand by my theory that for the Rebels to survive the Force must die. They need our Coach our players and more backdoor funds from the ARU . If the Rebels fail financially again the ARU are alone in the crosshairs.
Pulver and Clyne saying “Sadly Andrew came too late”
Andrew is answering this himself but I would imagine it is not at all too late from a practical and planning purpose. Sanzaar will no doubt have a number of Super 15 Draw models including:
• Force are out
• Force are in Sunwolves are out
• No one is out 16 team tournament
No one has booked a flight and no city has revoked its stadium deal. I think we all know that there is NO Contractual agreement between SANZAAR and the ARU to cut an Australian Team and other than a massive loss of face (which they will get anyway if we win the appeal) there really isn’t that much at stake for the ARU.
It’s very clear that this man is a poor liar and has morphed into one of a Pathological stature. He has not even been clever enough to check his tracks, even the fresh one. That’s what liars do they only have their own form of truth.

John subsequently added:
“Remember that this all started last year with WF Board going to the ARU to ask for a loan.
Something every other Franchise had done at least once and in most cases for a higher amount.
The ARU came back to us with a “better” idea which was the Alliance.
We liked it because it fixed our short liquidity issues and gave us a buy back option (which we started work on immediately) but most importantly it fixed a long term problem of talent equalisation and got them in our tent. Ironically we may not have gotten Billy (Meakes) or even our 2 home grown boys Curtis(Rona) and Chance (Peni) without the ARU finally giving us a “hand”.
This “Alliance” model was a model the ARU wanted to achieve for ALL franchises and we were to be the test pilot.
Clearly despite rigorous legal work by our team on the agreement a word or 2 allowed them to pounce when they needed to.
I will never believe it was a set up from the start but todays revelations would tell you that the ARU certainly put the document to the test when they decided to look at the options to cut a team.
Clearly the complete background, the intent or the marvellous fanfare with which Pulver announced the deal was trampled into the NSW mud when their vision for ” making Rugby accessible to all Australians” narrowed by a few thousand kilometres.”

"Cheers John”

FF (Folau Fainga'a) comment: This feedback is typical of what the WF Board has tried to provide for WF Members/Supporters during this entire process. It’s been an excellent effort and greatly appreciated.

 

[chibimatty]

I wonder if, when the WF board needed a loan, they could have gone to Twiggy back then instead? Or would that have been against regulations?

 

[USARugger]

Did Twiggy do much for the Force before coming in at the last second?

What he did honestly looked liked a self-promotional/anti-ARU motivated play (moreso than it being purely pro-Force in motivation, otherwise why would he wait as long as he did to get involved? If he really was concerned about the Force over taking shots at the ARU, why wait until it's all but decided?) to me.

Asking honestly - not trying to instigate anything. I feel a bit out of the loop in regards to this discussion over the last 2 or so months.

 

[USARugger]

Err no rebels were last in. suggest you are not up with this


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I blame the chicken runners for all of it

 

[Leo86]

Did Twiggy do much for the Force before coming in at the last second?

What he did honestly looked liked a self-promotional/anti-ARU motivated play (moreso than it being purely pro-Force in motivation, otherwise why would he wait as long as he did to get involved? If he really was concerned about the Force over taking shots at the ARU, why wait until it's all but decided?) to me.

Asking honestly - not trying to instigate anything. I feel a bit out of the loop in regards to this discussion over the last 2 or so months.

Twiggy was/is a jersey sponsor (FMG) also provides funding for the Future Force foundation. He has stated he only intervened when it became apparent common sense was not going to prevail and that he feels it was never a fair process

 

[TOCC]

Did Twiggy do much for the Force before coming in at the last second?

What he did honestly looked liked a self-promotional/anti-ARU motivated play (moreso than it being purely pro-Force in motivation, otherwise why would he wait as long as he did to get involved? If he really was concerned about the Force over taking shots at the ARU, why wait until it's all but decided?) to me.

Asking honestly - not trying to instigate anything. I feel a bit out of the loop in regards to this discussion over the last 2 or so months.

FMG has sponsored the Force for years

 

[Gnostic]

In defence of Paarlbok's comments on the last page regarding the expansion. Whilst many were happy to see the expansion and posted as such for a multitude of reasons, some of the harder nosed business people on the forum questioned the sustainability of it. When it became apparent that the expansion also significantly compromised the quality of the competition in terms of format and play the writing was on the wall. Further expansion was idiotic, but as we have now proved beyond any doubt the ARU board is populated by fools drunk on their own prestige/position with no real sports management experience.

I am and always have been firmly in the boat of the Super expansion was always going to fail and the Australian sides were always going to be either rationalised to four (or three) either by financial failure or what we have now.

It is devastating personally for the Force fans and IMO unnecessary as the logical and best outcome for Oz rugby would have been merging the Rebels and Brumbies to keep the fan bases (less some attrition) and keeping the mythical "National Footprint". It also made sense from financial stability POV.

So what we have now is a brewing civil war and disenfranchised fans to add to the schism between the grass roots and the pro level.

Burn it down. Raze it to the foundations and start again.

 

[Derpus]

A few comments.

1) Twiggy has sponsored the force for years, but has done so quietly and as an official sponsor rather than attempting to take direct control in an organisation he isn't professionally affiliated with. Which is appropriate frankly. That he has had to step in this much due to others incompetence is probably as galling to him as it is to the rest of us who could see the Force should never have been cut. That being said i still think it is too late. Unless we can convince SANZAAR to change their minds. I don't think we can force their hands.

2) We don't need to burn it all down. Read this here article by fitzy. There is an existing, strong fan base that is waiting, practically begging for anyone with half a clue to connect with them. The Shute Shield is just one example. There is a strong base in Brisbane. A smaller on in Canberra. A rapidly developing one in Perth. It exists. We exist. It's the failed launch into professionalism that needs to be cut free. No free to air? fuck that. Alienation of those with lower socio-economic status? fuck that. Top down economics and funds channeled away from roots to Izzy Folau? Fuck that. Rugby is not dying. It just needs a reboot.

3) Sean McMahon really encapsulated the disconnect perfectly when he said he did not give a shit about the fans criticizing the Wallabies efforts. Off to Japan you go buddy.

4) Whilst England have admittedly got better crowds and they own a stadium, their recent success has come out of a massive emphasis on developing the grass roots of the game. They now have depth to rival the All Blacks, one of the largest player bases in the world (professional and non-professional) and could well be on their way to usurping NZ. There's a blue print for you. It just requires planning further than 1 year in advance.

 

[Killer]

A few comments.

1) Twiggy has sponsored the force for years, but has done so quietly and as an official sponsor rather than attempting to take direct control in an organisation he isn't professionally affiliated with. Which is appropriate frankly. That he has had to step in this much due to others incompetence is probably as galling to him as it is to the rest of us who could see the Force should never have been cut. That being said i still think it is too late. Unless we can convince SANZAAR to change their minds. I don't think we can force their hands.

2) We don't need to burn it all down. Read this here article by fitzy. There is an existing, strong fan base that is waiting, practically begging for anyone with half a clue to connect with them. The Shute Shield is just one example. There is a strong base in Brisbane. A smaller on in Canberra. A rapidly developing one in Perth. It exists. We exist. It's the failed launch into professionalism that needs to be cut free. No free to air? fuck that. Alienation of those with lower socio-economic status? fuck that. Top down economics and funds channeled away from roots to Izzy Folau? Fuck that. Rugby is not dying. It just needs a reboot.

3) Sean McMahon really encapsulated the disconnect perfectly when he said he did not give a shit about the fans criticizing the Wallabies efforts. Off to Japan you go buddy.

4) Whilst England have admittedly got better crowds and they own a stadium, their recent success has come out of a massive emphasis on developing the grass roots of the game. They now have depth to rival the All Blacks, one of the largest player bases in the world (professional and non-professional) and could well be on their way to usurping NZ. There's a blue print for you. It just requires planning further than 1 year in advance.

Some fair points.
Why is it too late, because Clyne says so? he cannot be believed.
We can simply tell sanzaar it will do too much damage, if there is a way to fix I'm sure they will accommodate it, the intransigence is imo coming from Clyne. Its been reported that the board wants to engage with TF.

The ARU's problem is not being able to take a long term view because of the financial pressure. TF gives them this option, in 10 years we could be unstoppable, as you say engaging all those fans with strong grassroots.

If the WF gets cut TF will be gone and probably forever. Not to mention that the ARU will have he, the WA gov and many others as enemies for life.

 

[Hoolly Doolly]

WF law team should ask some questions over in SA like when did they know? When did the Cheetahs and Kings start the process of switching competitions? Im certain there has been a lot of longterm planning involved which might shed more insight into when the ARU knew and what their true intentions were when a Alliance agreement was proposed.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Boet honestly you can just check our lowest team, the Kings results.
Kings vs Australia teams
Force 46 Kings 41
Reds 47 Kings 34
Waratahs 24 Kings 26
Kings 44 Rebels 3
Kings 10 Brumbies 19

Yep, the Kings are unlucky. They beat our two worst performing teams, and neither of those are being cut.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

The line 'well we made an agreement with Saanzar sp it seems now to late' ffs people the ARU are Saanzar

 

[Derpus]

The line 'well we made an agreement with Saanzar sp it seems now to late' ffs people the ARU are Saanzar

Nope. the ARU are 1/4 of SANZAAR and SANZAAR's decisions are distinct from the ARU's. It's a joint venture.