Where to for Super Rugby?

[half]

Just on the court thing by international rugby and the ARU competition.

Works both ways and Twiggy understands this.

Take the decision by the ARU that bans players from going overseas. Says these players cannot play for Australia if they don't play in an ARU approved competition in Australia.

There is a little ""Act"" called The Trade Practices Act, which has large section and lots of case law on "Restriction of Trade" akin to the AFL draft but the only reason the AFL draft and the ARU policy of play for us or else if challenged under the TPC would be found to be in breach of it.

Also he would muster some powerful people say BuildCorp I imagine would back him as well.

Yeah, I don't think you've got that right....

There's no ban on players heading overseas, and nothing preventing those players from practicing their trade elsewhere - they're just not eligible for the Wallabies if they do.

The argument is you can't play for Australia because you play overseas and that can effect your income

 

[oztimmay]

The argument is you can't play for Australia because you play overseas and that can effect your income

They have restrictions now (min 60 test, amongst other things), and they don't seem to breach the Competition and Consumer Act as it stands now. So, how would excluding players from a non-sanctioned competition be a breach of the C&CA?

Players know now that, based on certain criteria, they forego their right to represent their country if they don't play in the Super Rugby competition. I'd image a competition Aus competition would be treated in a similar manner.

Then you have the issue of ARU contracted players. THey have a contractual obligation to play for Super Rugby unless they want out of their contract. THat's at least three current force players who would probably move. Then again, they may wish to stay loyal to TF and play in the new competition.

Until we see any detail on a proposed breakaway competition, we don't know what's gonna happen.

 

[Killer]

They have restrictions now (min 60 test, amongst other things), and they don't seem to breach the Competition and Consumer Act as it stands now. So, how would excluding players from a non-sanctioned competition be a breach of the C&CA?

Players know now that, based on certain criteria, they forego their right to represent their country if they don't play in the Super Rugby competition. I'd image a competition Aus competition would be treated in a similar manner.

Then you have the issue of ARU contracted players. THey have a contractual obligation to play for Super Rugby unless they want out of their contract. THat's at least three current force players who would probably move. Then again, they may wish to stay loyal to TF and play in the new competition.

Until we see any detail on a proposed breakaway competition, we don't know what's gonna happen.

as I've said before, your argument is assuming the ARU are not bankrupt, something the WA Govt seems intent on bringing about.

 

[Killer]

as I've said before, your argument is assuming the ARU are not bankrupt, something the WA Govt seems intent on bringing about.

BTW what is it with all you Rebs supporters and Slim, the current system is shot.

 

[Mr Doug]

Jesus what's wrong with you guy's, "we're all doomed, don't try anything, lie in fetal position"
If you have a financial backer bigger than the ARU etc, its competitive, easily accessed on FTA TV, lots of sponsors, generally massive public support bc of their perception of the powers that be, a season that goes for 22 weeks, then you will in a due course be the power or at least can't be ignored.
Look at all the disaffected rugby supporters around Aus, people just want a team to support home and away. It is the same with players and team administrations will attract the players they need.

Killer, perhaps it's time to resurrect the motto printed on the back of my 2005 Western Force T shirt?:

"GET ON BOARD OR GET OUT OF THE WAY".

 

[dru]

Yeah, I don't think you've got that right....

There's no ban on players heading overseas, and nothing preventing those players from practicing their trade elsewhere - they're just not eligible for the Wallabies if they do.

Not really. By reports Magnay is being denied a Reds contract (ie a Super Rugby contract) if he looks to experience in Japan in the off season.

 

[BLR]

BTW what is it with all you Rebs supporters and Slim, the current system is shot.

Well for the Rebs supporters perhaps fear of being left out, being held to account for the sins of the past/losing that ARU gravy train?

Maybe the Rebels v Force fight is so ingrained by this point it is a reflex.

 

[Slim 293]

Not really. By reports Magnay is being denied a Reds contract (ie a Super Rugby contract) if he looks to experience in Japan in the off season.

He's not being denied playing overseas though..........

The Reds are choosing not to offer him a contract.

 

[stoff]

Well for the Rebs supporters perhaps fear of being left out, being held to account for the sins of the past/losing that ARU gravy train?

Maybe we're just sick of you shitting on our team?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FiveStarStu]

Maybe the Rebels v Force fight is so ingrained by this point it is a reflex.

It's a genuine tragedy that this year has done that to two incredibly similar groups of fans.

I don't fear being left out. I want the Force to bankrupt the ARU. Tearing it down and starting again is the only way to break the ARU/NSW/QLD triumvirate that's ingrained in the national body.

 

[Sauron]

He's not being denied playing overseas though....

The Reds are choosing not to offer him a contract.

I don't think the Reds are choosing anything, quite frankly.

 

[Slim 293]

the current system is shot.

It is......... and it needs an overhaul.

Something more substantial than an ill-conceived Twiggy rant.

 

[Highlander35]

Well for the Rebs supporters perhaps fear of being left out, being held to account for the sins of the past/losing that ARU gravy train?

Maybe the Rebels v Force fight is so ingrained by this point it is a reflex.

Maybe at this stage it's a pipe dream since as long as the ARU remains solvent, they'll deny deny deny any attempt to set up a rival Union comp, and World Rugby will back them up, particularly if there any attempts to get New Zealand, Fiji, Japan or Singapore, whose Unions will all have a series of Contracts around the New Zealand Conference, the Drua and the Sunwolves for the last two respectively.

Should it come about, it's exactly what Australian Rugby needs: Super Rugby is trying to fulfill all the interests of about 4 to 6 different bodies and leaves us with a "competition" lacking appeal as commercial entity in and of itself.

I just don't see it happening, but am more than happy to cheer on a Victorian team and/or Victorian players in such a comp.

 

[swingpass]

BTW what is it with all you Rebs supporters and Slim, the current system is shot.

Well for the Rebs supporters perhaps fear of being left out, being held to account for the sins of the past/losing that ARU gravy train?

Maybe the Rebels v Force fight is so ingrained by this point it is a reflex.

get a grip, this is nothing to do with Force v Rebels. Most if not all the Rebels supporters on here, including me, wanted 5 teams to stay, all think the force have been appallingly dealt with.

i agree the system is shot but the reality is it is not likely to change because in order to do so the constituents have to want to. it is not in the interests of either the QRU or NSWRU to change the status quo. the unbridled optimism that TF will change everything is IMO misplaced, as was the faith Force supporters had in the "alliance", as i suspect will be their certainty that an appeal will be granted and upheld (on a point of law - not the merits or otherwise of their case), and failing that legal proceedings will bankrupt the ARU or that there will be an international rugby comp based in Perth, or the Force will relocate to China, or the SunWolves merger or any of the other pie in the sky proposals put forward.

everyone needs to see the reality, the ARU run (bad choice of verb) rugby in Australia, they are doing a crap job, but i personally cant see any significant change occurring any time soon. Super rugby isnt, and wont survive, whatever the ARU, NZRU or SARU do. the sport in Australia as a major professional code is in terminal decline if you ask me, we will see a better organised larger national semi pro comp eventually emerge but not until the current power structures want it.

in the meantime i wish the Force and their supporters, all the best in the their endeavours to stay alive, i just think the enthusiasm should be tempered with some realism, less disappointment that way.

 

[Killer]

get a grip, this is nothing to do with Force v Rebels. Most if not all the Rebels supporters on here, including me, wanted 5 teams to stay, all think the force have been appallingly dealt with.

i agree the system is shot but the reality is it is not likely to change because in order to do so the constituents have to want to. it is not in the interests of either the QRU or NSWRU to change the status quo. the unbridled optimism that TF will change everything is IMO misplaced, as was the faith Force supporters had in the "alliance", as i suspect will be their certainty that an appeal will be granted and upheld (on a point of law - not the merits or otherwise of their case), and failing that legal proceedings will bankrupt the ARU or that there will be an international rugby comp based in Perth, or the Force will relocate to China, or the SunWolves merger or any of the other pie in the sky proposals put forward.

everyone needs to see the reality, the ARU run (bad choice of verb) rugby in Australia, they are doing a crap job, but i personally cant see any significant change occurring any time soon. Super rugby isnt, and wont survive, whatever the ARU, NZRU or SARU do. the sport in Australia as a major professional code is in terminal decline if you ask me, we will see a better organised larger national semi pro comp eventually emerge but not until the current power structures want it.

in the meantime i wish the Force and their supporters, all the best in the their endeavours to stay alive, i just think the enthusiasm should be tempered with some realism, less disappointment that way.

obviously u were not around when TF was selling the idea of a 3rd major iron ore producer to the Into's over east, a pipe dream most thought. Or when the big 2 refused to allow FMG to use their rail lines and the over whelming consensus was they could never build their own rail line so were f/ked. But TF did it.
Replying "so much delusion ! so little grasp of reality" is not giving TF his earned due.

 

[dru]

He's not being denied playing overseas though....

The Reds are choosing not to offer him a contract.

Not my understanding - the Reds WANT to contract him, but the ARU has stepped in.

Edit: from the Reds 2018 thread.

"On another note, Magnay looks set to sign with the Crusaders for next season because the ARU have decided they no longer like the concept of players earning more money playing in Japan during the offseason, Reds want to keep him, he wants to play at the he Reds in 2018, but ARU have taken a stance."

 

[mst]

World Rugby Regulation 16.2.1 (among many others)

Now this is where it all starts to get really intersting and World Rugby (and especially the ARU will be getting vety nervous).

So lets just put aside the institutionalised views and beliefs and look what we have.

So is Rugby WA a union? Would anyone strip Rugby WA of that status for political gain and hurt players especially if its expanding the game; the publicity (and there is international reporting on this) would be quite significant? They are only making the best of a bad situation and wanting to keep rugby going in WA.

So, putting yourselves in the shoes of World Rugby would you say no to a massive investment from a solid investment and risk showing you will shut down people willing to put millions in to grow the game? Remember this is being played on the international stage and not some backyard stouch in NSW! (remember the ARU has chewed through $770mil in 10 years, Twiggy just made more than 50% of that just in profits this year so the funding cash cow is on a different scale).

If Twiggy were to sang a Japanese team World Rugby would not dare a fight pre-RWC.

If Twiggy were to get TV coverage (backing) again (just remember Kerry Stokes has also weighed in on this) would World Rugby dare act as TV will follow the money and the ARU and SANZAAR may find negotiations very difficult in future.

The other question to ask is in reality is how much power do World Rugby really have? It would only take one "group" to break ranks and the door opens for others and then what will World Rugby do? Exclude countries, impose sanctions, block player trades and movement? Really, what can they do?

Even if they could, would they want to in this situation it maybe the saviour of the game here and the interference could be the final dropping of the axe that ends it all.

The argument about access to the "best" players is really moot. The Wallabies pool of players is still quite small and Ben Mowen showed that not all players are interested in playing the ARU selection games. Other good players certainly can play internationally (without the Wallaby dependency we wish they had) playing in invite tournaments and Barbarian games (like Lilo did 2 seasons ago) which shows that you can be top flight and not in favour for national selection and still play on the international stage with the best players in the world.

Looking at really successful rugby (as in ratings / crowds / support) being played right now its the Mitre 10 and Currie Cup which only "FEATURES" some of the top flight players and is fantastic to watch and is the key demonstration that you don't need the draw cards to built a good product. In fact, it the place draw cards are built (PS: you will notice in SA its not the Currie Cup teams having issues its the Super Rugby teams!)

So let get real and look at the contenders in this cage fight: Regulation 16.2.1 v $445mil worth of dividends (at least) and several hundred Rugby players, multiple clubs and an audience who wants to see good rugby (sanctioned or not).

I would be interested to see the attitudes of players right now. Jobs being cut, contacts being blocked by the ARU.......

 

[mst]

Think it would just be a plan for survival for both parties.

The combination would be strong, and very competitive and likely make the finals.

It would keep both entitles alive until 2020 when whatever new deal is struck.
That looks increasingly like a competition without the Africans. A new comp based around a 4 hour time zone window (AUS- NZ -JAP maybe Fiji) where they could demerge. This cannot happen soon enough.

Um, why do the Sunwolves need a survival plan? They are not at risk.

 

[Killer]

Now this is where it all starts to get really intersting and World Rugby (and especially the ARU will be getting vety nervous).

So lets just put aside the institutionalised views and beliefs and look what we have.

So is Rugby WA a union? Would anyone strip Rugby WA of that status for political gain and hurt players especially if its expanding the game; the publicity (and there is international reporting on this) would be quite significant? They are only making the best of a bad situation and wanting to keep rugby going in WA.

So, putting yourselves in the shoes of World Rugby would you say no to a massive investment from a solid investment and risk showing you will shut down people willing to put millions in to grow the game? Remember this is being played on the international stage and not some backyard stouch in NSW! (remember the ARU has chewed through $770mil in 10 years, Twiggy just made more than 50% of that just in profits this year so the funding cash cow is on a different scale).

If Twiggy were to sang a Japanese team World Rugby would not dare a fight pre-RWC.

If Twiggy were to get TV coverage (backing) again (just remember Kerry Stokes has also weighed in on this) would World Rugby dare act as TV will follow the money and the ARU and SANZAAR may find negotiations very difficult in future.

The other question to ask is in reality is how much power do World Rugby really have? It would only take one "group" to break ranks and the door opens for others and then what will World Rugby do? Exclude countries, impose sanctions, block player trades and movement? Really, what can they do?

Even if they could, would they want to in this situation it maybe the saviour of the game here and the interference could be the final dropping of the axe that ends it all.

The argument about access to the "best" players is really moot. The Wallabies pool of players is still quite small and Ben Mowen showed that not all players are interested in playing the ARU selection games. Other good players certainly can play internationally (without the Wallaby dependency we wish they had) playing in invite tournaments and Barbarian games (like Lilo did 2 seasons ago) which shows that you can be top flight and not in favour for national selection and still play on the international stage with the best players in the world.

Looking at really successful rugby (as in ratings / crowds / support) being played right now its the Mitre 10 and Currie Cup which only "FEATURES" some of the top flight players and is fantastic to watch and is the key demonstration that you don't need the draw cards to built a good product. In fact, it the place draw cards are built (PS: you will notice in SA its not the Currie Cup teams having issues its the Super Rugby teams!)

So let get real and look at the contenders in this cage fight: Regulation 16.2.1 v $445mil worth of dividends (at least) and several hundred Rugby players, multiple clubs and an audience who wants to see good rugby (sanctioned or not).

I would be interested to see the attitudes of players right now. Jobs being cut, contacts being blocked by the ARU...

a nice little rupa led players strike would be entertaining. To see the look on Clynes face!

 

[Jon]

a nice little rupa led players strike would be entertaining. To see the look on Clynes face!

That would involve the RUPA doing more than just issuing press releases though. Not sure they have it in them TBH.