Where to for Super Rugby?

[dru]

If we bail out of SANZAAR as far as Super Rugby goes, Tests will likely be affected too. All these things are linked. I don't think our bargaining position is such that we can pick the pathway to "suit ourselves" and get the upside while dumping all the downside. We hold few decent cards.

Yep, agreed. I do not at all see a lack of downsides, nor much at all in the way of strengths.

But what is the alternative? I'm seeing a slide to non-existent pro rugby in Australia. I'd rather something than nothing. And I'd rather national rugby not rugby in NSW and Qld.

 

[daz]

Shit attitude. Most fans don't want a team cut. It's only normal that speculation (often with reasonable basis) about Cox and what will happen is discussed here. Hardly seems a legitimate reason to tell the other clubs where to go. They are not to blame for this cluster fuck. The Force are not to blame either,getting upset that they are taking every measure available to stay alive while your club does the same is unreasonable.

What happens to your precious Melbourne rugby when the other clubs are weakened? Rugby will also die down there too if the game continues to fucking canabalise itself.

Very few people here seem to be acting in the long-term interest of the code. Not the Rebels or Force, or the ARU, or probably QLD, NSW or Canberra.

It's all fucked. Too many fuckers still, after all this, only interested in what's best for them. And I put Cox in that category too. But don't confuse that with me being happy a team is going to be cut.

There are no winners here. Everyone loses, all that varies is the extent of the loss. Most important of all, and sorry if this insults your Rebels pride, is the damage being done to the code. Because the loss of rugby as a legitimate game is this country is a much sadder prospect than the loss of one club, and that's what will happen when fans in general develop your insular attitude.

Well, it may be a shit attitude, but its mine to have.

I don't blame the Force, or any club, for kicking and screaming to be made safe. Having said that, I think the NSW and Qld rugby people have had it all their own way for far too long, and suddenly you are sympathetic to the expansion teams and think the ARU need a smack? Appreciate the condescending support. You call me insular, when the majority of rugby "supporters" in Qld and NSW insist that during this "process" we are THE HEARTLAND?

It HAS to be the Force or the Rebels, according to you good folk. God forbid we consider the Reds or the Tahs. Don't merge with the Brumbies either; they once won a title.

As long as rugby is seen as a sport belonging to NSW and Qld, which it is, regardless of what you might like to think, please don't fucking talk to me about insular.

But be that as it may, I'm not sure you have fully understood my position; if the Rebels go, I couldn't care less if the code sinks or swims in this country.

How's that for a shit attitude?

 

[RedsHappy]

Surely the only way to really reform Australian rugby would be for the powerful state unions to essentially collapse themselves and cede power to the ARU which would need a substantial overhaul in terms of corporate governance etc.

The areas of the game that need the most attention are under the least control by the ARU. They need money with no way of generating it themselves.

There are too many levels of bureaucracy between the top and the bottom.

Generally yes. And that collapsing is made far more difficult by the complex interlacing of political interests that has made State RUs and the ARU united in building a destructive coalition of mutually assured low managerial and general competency standards at both State and national levels in almost all aspects of running the code in Australia.

Meaning that there is no isolated centre of existing high competence we can quickly build around in a radical overhaul of the code here. That new centre of much higher competence will have be designed and constructed. Though I do believe that in the wider rugby community we have the initial resources to do it, but careful supplementation from overseas resources and skills would be essential.

A PS: don't forget BH that Wallaby and Wallaby-related ARU income is substantial.

 

[RedsHappy]

Yep, agreed. I do not at all see a lack of downsides, nor much at all in the way of strengths.

But what is the alternative? I'm seeing a slide to non-existent pro rugby in Australia. I'd rather something than nothing. And I'd rather national rugby not rugby in NSW and Qld.

Good points and sentiment Dru.

No radical reconstruction to save a code has just immediate upsides and no or few downsides. F Lowy knew there were huge risks when he led the full reconstruction of Australian soccer.

The key question is: are the risks of a radical reconstruction lower or higher than the risks that the current status quo within and around Australian rugby without radical change will drive it into the dirt in a manner that from which recovery of any credible and viable kind will be made highly unlikely.

 

[Gnostic]

As long as rugby is seen as a sport belonging to NSW and Qld, which it is, regardless of what you might like to think, please don't fucking talk to me about insular.



But be that as it may, I'm not sure you have fully understood my position; if the Rebels go, I couldn't care less if the code sinks or swims in this country.



How's that for a shit attitude?

WOW. Just WOW.

Daz you have achieved something I didn't think possible. You have made me appear to be a moderate, reasonable and sane person.

 

[RedsHappy]

Well, it may be a shit attitude, but its mine to have.

I don't blame the Force, or any club, for kicking and screaming to be made safe. Having said that, I think the NSW and Qld rugby people have had it all their own way for far too long, and suddenly you are sympathetic to the expansion teams and think the ARU need a smack? Appreciate the condescending support. You call me insular, when the majority of rugby "supporters" in Qld and NSW insist that during this "process" we are THE HEARTLAND?

It HAS to be the Force or the Rebels, according to you good folk. God forbid we consider the Reds or the Tahs. Don't merge with the Brumbies either; they once won a title.

As long as rugby is seen as a sport belonging to NSW and Qld, which it is, regardless of what you might like to think, please don't fucking talk to me about insular.

But be that as it may, I'm not sure you have fully understood my position; if the Rebels go, I couldn't care less if the code sinks or swims in this country.

How's that for a shit attitude?

daz - am I correct that long ago you and I corresponded here to the effect that up to around 2011 you were a Reds' supporter and that you at that time or prior supported the Reds on these boards (perhaps as a result of a once-QLD personal affiliation or location)?

 

[Killer]

WOW. Just WOW.

Daz you have achieved something I didn't think possible. You have made me appear to be a moderate, reasonable and sane person.

I don't agree with most of Daz's POV but you gentlemen until you have experienced the emotions of a Rebs or WF supporter over the last weeks it is very unfair to say the above or similar.

 

[Gnostic]

I don't agree with most of Daz's POV but you gentlemen until you have experienced the emotions of a Rebs or WF supporter over the last weeks it is very unfair to say the above or similar.

No it isn't really, if it was going to be for the long term good of the game I'd support the removal of the Tahs, in fact if you had read even the last page you would have seen that my preferred option is the removal of all Australian sides.

Daz's opinion is equivalent of a scorned partner deciding if they can't have the whole house they'll burn it to the ground so nobody can have anything, not trying to find a way forward any way to minimise the damage and come out with something at the end.

 

[Highlander35]

Daz's opinion is equivalent of a scorned partner deciding if they can't have the whole house they'll burn it to the ground so nobody can have anything, not trying to find a way forward any way to minimise the damage and come out with something at the end.

More like the bloke potentially voted off the life raft threatening to slash it if that comes to pass, given that the Rebels going is basically the death of Victorian Rugby as anything but the amateur club game and the home of the occasional schoolboy deserving of a NSW/QLD School Scholarship.

 

[Omar Comin']

No it isn't really, if it was going to be for the long term good of the game I'd support the removal of the Tahs, in fact if you had read even the last page you would have seen that my preferred option is the removal of all Australian sides.

Daz's opinion is equivalent of a scorned partner deciding if they can't have the whole house they'll burn it to the ground so nobody can have anything, not trying to find a way forward any way to minimise the damage and come out with something at the end.

It's just not realistic to expect everyone to put the good of the game above the good of their team. To use your metaphor, for a lot of people the team is the whole house. This is just human nature. People are tribal. For many people, especially the most passionate fans, if you remove their team they're lost from the sport. Earlier in this thread I mentioned I'd been a North Sydney Bears supporter as a kid before they were cut. Turns out there are a few more former Bears fans here. And all of us had stopped supporting rugby league after that.

 

[Killer]

No it isn't really, if it was going to be for the long term good of the game I'd support the removal of the Tahs, in fact if you had read even the last page you would have seen that my preferred option is the removal of all Australian sides.

Daz's opinion is equivalent of a scorned partner deciding if they can't have the whole house they'll burn it to the ground so nobody can have anything, not trying to find a way forward any way to minimise the damage and come out with something at the end.

Maybe that came over harsher than I meant?
Until you are in the position of almost actually losing your team you cannot imagine the emotions involved, a roller coaster.
So what Daz says now will probably be different in time, cut him some slack is all I'm saying.
BTW I have read the whole thread.

Personally if the WF were to be culled, my thoughts atm would be, I would stay engaged at Club level because of my kids, but my engagement at National and International level would be minimal and decreasing.

 

[BLR]

Meaning that there is no isolated centre of existing high competence we can quickly build around in a radical overhaul of the code here. That new centre of much higher competence will have be designed and constructed. Though I do believe that in the wider rugby community we have the initial resources to do it, but careful supplementation from overseas resources and skills would be essential.

Geoff Stooke, the only member of the ARU board who voted AGAINST cutting a team and has said that he did not feel comfortable with the way the ARU had made the decision to do so. The only one to not tow the line that got us into this shitstorm we are in at the moment.

 

[I like to watch]

If we bail out of SANZAAR as far as Super Rugby goes, Tests will likely be affected too. All these things are linked. I don't think our bargaining position is such that we can pick the pathway to "suit ourselves" and get the upside while dumping all the downside. We hold few decent cards.

Possible,not likely IMO.
It makes money for the other nations to play us, so they are unlikely to bypass cash unless there is exceedingly bad blood in the manner of us exiting Super.

We do hold few decent cards, and always will, cos ARU is totally re active,they are never pro active or in front of the game.
if they were dealt four 2's and an ace, they'd bin the 2's hoping for the miracle royal flush, then tell you how unlucky they have been with their cards all night.

 

[RedsHappy]

Geoff Stooke, the only member of the ARU board who voted AGAINST cutting a team and has said that he did not feel comfortable with the way the ARU had made the decision to do so. The only one to not tow the line that got us into this shitstorm we are in at the moment.

BLR - I wonder how many of the ARU board, in taking the affirmative decision to cull a Super team, pro-actively asked to see and thus obtained a precise summary of the extant contract agreements with the cullee candidates with particular reference to formal termination rights (or the absence of such rights in 2017).

I have my criticisms of the ARU board - to put it mildly - but I cannot believe that many of those directors with sound corporate experience would have permitted to the ARU Chair and CEO to publicly announce an immediate cull of one team 'within 72 hours' if they had properly known of the major contractual blockages to doing so that have now so painfully emerged.

The decision to cull a Super team was manifestly a very serious matter for discussion and decision by the whole ARU board, of that there can be no debate.

Either (a) the ARU board wanted the termination rights analysis yet were very improperly or grossly inadequately informed by management re the termination rights (or lack of them) matters (which if so would be tantamount to gross professional negligence and/or incompetence by management), or (b) the legal advice relating to same was given but was highly flawed (very unlikely), or (c) the board did not at all seek nor were presented with a termination rights analysis (which if so would be tantamount to appallingly lazy and inadequate board governance by the whole board).

As I have said elsewhere, especially if Cox does as he says and sues the ARU for damages, I believe we have not heard the last of the above issues re the conduct of and information supplied to the ARU board individually and collectively.

 

[daz]

Daz's opinion is equivalent of a scorned partner deciding if they can't have the whole house they'll burn it to the ground so nobody can have anything, .

FINALLY, someone gets me!

I'm not saying I'll burn the code to the ground though; I'm just saying I won't give a shit about it one way or the other. It will be dead to me.

 

[Gnostic]

^^^^^^ and as we have been saying it for many years. This current crisis is just the end game of the systems and lack thereof that the Management and Board have allowed up to this point. This is a crisis of their making, not one of externalities.

 

[lou75]

BLR - I wonder how many of the ARU board, in taking the affirmative decision to cull a Super team, pro-actively asked to see and thus obtained a precise summary of the extant contract agreements with the cullee candidates with particular reference to formal termination rights (or the absence of such rights in 2017).

I have my criticisms of the ARU board - to put it mildly - but I cannot believe that many of those directors with sound corporate experience would have permitted to the ARU Chair and CEO to publicly announce an immediate cull of one team 'within 72 hours' if they had properly known of the major contractual blockages to doing so that have now so painfully emerged.

The decision to cull a Super team was manifestly a very serious matter for discussion and decision by the whole ARU board, of that there can be no debate.

Either (a) the ARU board wanted the termination rights analysis yet were very improperly or grossly inadequately informed by management re the termination rights (or lack of them) matters (which if so would be tantamount to gross professional negligence and/or incompetence by management), or (b) the legal advice relating to same was given but was highly flawed (very unlikely), or (c) the board did not at all seek nor were presented with a termination rights analysis (which if so would be tantamount to appallingly lazy and inadequate board governance by the whole board).

As I have said elsewhere, especially if Cox does as he says and sues the ARU for damages, I believe we have not heard the last of the above issues re the conduct of and information supplied to the ARU board individually and collectively.

If the ARU board had indeed considered the cut of a franchise why wasn't this signalled in the annual reports signed off at that time? This is gross negligence and fraud

 

[daz]

daz - am I correct that long ago you and I corresponded here to the effect that up to around 2011 you were a Reds' supporter and that you at that time or prior supported the Reds on these boards (perhaps as a result of a once-QLD personal affiliation or location)?

Yep, spent 5 years in Qld and followed the Reds. Not supported. Crucial difference.

But now I have MY team. And if they go, I go with them. Is that really that hard to understand? It's not that I'll hate the code, or wish it good or bad. I will be completely indifferent to it. Like I am to NRL or AFL.

 

[daz]

WOW. Just WOW.

Daz you have achieved something I didn't think possible. You have made me appear to be a moderate, reasonable and sane person.

Impressive, huh?

 

[Gnostic]

FINALLY, someone gets me!



I'm not saying I'll burn the code to the ground though; I'm just saying I won't give a shit about it one way or the other. It will be dead to me.

I get you, I understand the emotion and even have some sympathy for it. I do remember my following of League in the 70's and 80's ended completely with the removal of Newtown Club from the premiership. That said I was never a hard core fan of the game, I followed Newtown because my Dad's mates played in the 1st grade side and I got to sit on the sidelines when we went. I've always been a rugby boy through choice and love of the game itself regardless of team. Not better or anything, just a different appreciation.

Genuine question if my postulated solution and a merger of the Brumbies into the Rebels went through would your divorce from the game occur? For many in League if did with the mergers of Wests and Balmain/ St. George and Illawarra.