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Where to for Super Rugby?

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dru

David Wilson (68)
@
Steve Tew:

"We're using time up. I don't think we're running out of time yet," Tew said. "Sanzaar management are carrying on with business as usual in regards to preparing draws for a variety of scenarios. We're not sitting on our hands.

"It becomes very difficult for venues to be secured and bookings made on airplanes much past September. That's the date people are talking about being a logistical problem but we'd be hopeful we'd get through this well inside that problem date."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...g-super-rugby--18-team-competition-now-likely

".. variety of scenarios...." suggests to me he's not sure ARU will deliver on their commitment to cut a team. And I always thought we'd end up with 3 x 6 (God, please let it be 3 x 6 & not the current dogs breakfast) 'cos SARU wouldn't defy the ANC.

Liam Napier states that Australia cant sustain 5 competitve teams long term. This is a logical conclusion for a Kiwi journalist who has fed on the ARU presentation that actually says we are better off with three teams.

But I dont accept this as proven. It is correct insofar as, with the ARU as is, with the (lack of) pathways from grass root for players and coaches, and with the lack of promotion. But in this case Many actually doubt we can maintain 3. Or 2. Or anything. We are on a slippery slope, a slope we had somehow dodged. Untill the "cut a team" pushed us over.

I like Tew. This article once again shows a sensible head on a solid pair of shoulders. He is kind of bound to take on board Clyne and Pulver and their ARU assessment. But it imo provides false input.

Here are some things I would like Tew to take on board:
x it isnt simply 18 teams killing Soup, it is also the 4 conference system, and a draw that is either intentionally bizarre or drawn up in an Asylum.
x Australia needs a National footprint to survive. If SANZAR wants Australia involved in Soup it needs to find a mechanism for this.
x I'm happy to concede that within the current Soup setup and the ARU systems we couldnt manage a piss up in a brewery, let alone 5 competitive teams. BUT right now it may be necessary to play out "stronger as five". Until 2020. Trying to cut mid-season was an horrendous decission (which btw Tew shares culpability).

So, let's recognise the actual issues, without the ARU Salvadore Dali-esque filter, and seeing many Ausie fans almost longing for ARU to plunge off the abyss - in order for WRU/NZRU to fix it - (to me) both ludicrous and demeaning.

I think in this period of "commercial rationalisation" that other fundamentals should be considered across the SANZAR nations.
x NZ rugby $ is maxed out. At peak rugby.
x SA rugby $ is almost maxed out. Almost at peak rugby. By which I mean that there is penty of room to expand fan numbers, but that those numbers will increase in lower economic areas. This is happening against a deteriating national economy. So Rugby $ is more or les at peak, and there is considerable risk to the downside.
x Within the current Aus paradigm we are post-peak in rugby $ terms. Failing in a competitive market. But a change in paradigm opens massive opportunity. Rugby saturation is minimal. We only need to earn a few percentage points against our competition and the potential $ increase is huge. I'm going to call this the way I see it. Compared to SA and NZ, Australia is an economic juggernaut, a behemoth among minnows. An economy that invests heavily in sport. The opportunity is huge if we have the leadership and product to go after it. All the product requires imho is pathways and sensible management.

We dont need to "defeat" soccer, Aussie Rules and League. We just need to muscle in on a bit of turf.

SANZAR cant do much without a vibrant engaged ARU. But they should by now have reached the point of harsh language - understanding our real issues UNFILTERED by the muppets in the ARU.
 

lou75

Ron Walden (29)
I have heard that Pulver got roasted by SANZAAR when they met in Japan and that he was a blubbering mess emitting only vowels (well rounded of course) and, I can not lie, he needed to go to potty quite a lot, and didn't quite make it on at least one occasion.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
One reason they can't sack the brumbies is called promissory estoppel.
They announced the Brumbies were safe.
The brumbies changed their approach to the issue in reliance on announcement and so now the ARU are bound by that.
There may be other reasons too.
Everyone should just assume that there will legal problems not matter what the ARU do.
how long has cox's license got to run?
What commercial decisions have the Brumbies made since they being advised they were safe?
I agree with your inference about the Rebels, they are the only franchise where $$ might trump survival.
 

James Pettifer

Jim Clark (26)
One reason they can't sack the brumbies is called promissory estoppel.
They announced the Brumbies were safe.
The brumbies changed their approach to the issue in reliance on announcement and so now the ARU are bound by that.
There may be other reasons too.
Everyone should just assume that there will legal problems not matter what the ARU do.
how long has cox's license got to run?

But if the ARU has signed contracts with the Rebels and Force. Surely that has more weight.

Cox's license is 5 years under the funding arrangement and then a further 15 years unfunded. So if the ARU can hold out on making a decision until 2036 ...
 

Upthenuts

Dave Cowper (27)
Steve Tew:

"We're using time up. I don't think we're running out of time yet," Tew said. "Sanzaar management are carrying on with business as usual in regards to preparing draws for a variety of scenarios. We're not sitting on our hands.

"It becomes very difficult for venues to be secured and bookings made on airplanes much past September. That's the date people are talking about being a logistical problem but we'd be hopeful we'd get through this well inside that problem date."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...g-super-rugby--18-team-competition-now-likely

".. variety of scenarios...." suggests to me he's not sure ARU will deliver on their commitment to cut a team. And I always thought we'd end up with 3 x 6 (God, please let it be 3 x 6 & not the current dogs breakfast) 'cos SARU wouldn't defy the ANC.
3 x6 what with the argies in with us kiwis?
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
But if the ARU has signed contracts with the Rebels and Force. Surely that has more weight.

Cox's license is 5 years under the funding arrangement and then a further 15 years unfunded. So if the ARU can hold out on making a decision until 2036 .
Irrelevant because the relationship between the brumbies and ARU is not judged by other relationships the ARU may have - unless at an evidentiary level it could be said the existence of those other relationships meant the ARUs promise was not relied on by the brumbies to their detriment. It will be noted that as soon as the ARU told them they were safe they went stone cold silent on the issue!

Yeah - I assumed Cox had a pretty watertight position because otherwise he would be hanging in there against the ARU's will knowing that at the end of the deal they would cut him without compensation.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
What commercial decisions have the Brumbies made since they being advised they were safe?
I agree with your inference about the Rebels, they are the only franchise where $$ might trump survival.

They went stone cold silent while the other two mounted campaigns for survival.
Ordinarily I'd say "so what" - the problem is that the ARU have actually responded to those campaigns in such a way as to indicate, I think, that the campaigns are effective.
So the Brumbies lost the chance to influence the outcome by campaigning against their exclusion.
 

Rebels3

Jim Lenehan (48)
I think we all understand 5 teams isn't sustainable financially in he short to medium term (why that is the case is another question entirely). But we also know that cutting Victoria or Western Australia essentially kills our game in one region which is unacceptable and in the bigger scheme of things is paramount to move the game forward. So bare with me here, I am proposing the following system.

We have to get serious but we also have to get uncompromisingly tough with not only ourself but our partners.

We drop to 4 teams in super rugby. As a pure example and to save an absolute shit fight on the boards here, I'll say the 4 teams are force, tahs, brumbies and reds. (Might as well sacrifice my own team). Now having 4 teams will appease our partners and sure up the budget sheets. Performance should improve and the viability of super rugby as a whole improve.

That's the decision we had to make to be uncompromisingly tough of ourself and keep our very important and integral partners happy.

Now the next part of the plan is where we become uncompromisingly tough with our partners. If they want us to contract at an elite level, they must also be prepared to assist and take some of the burden. They might not feel it's their responsibility but the financial viability of Southern Hemisphere rugby and elite performance of Southern Hemisphere rugby is equally entwined with the strange beast that is sanzaar if they like it or not.

So what I'm proposing here is that the 5 Australian teams to join the NPC. There will be cries from New Zealand and rightly so, but from an Australian perspective it's the only way to keep the game some what relevant in all states.

The NPC is currently made up of 2 divisions of 7 teams. Each division could be reverted to 2 divisions of 10 teams (+ Fiji to round numbers), if you include the 5 Australian franchises.

The 4 existing super rugby teams would obviously play with their existing squads, so financially they wouldn't have to pay extra in wages. Plus it would also provide much needed extra content for the franchises. The franchises would also be without their wallabies players, so the perfect breeding ground for squad members and young players to gain much needed exposure. As for the 5th team, they like New Zealand's NPC teams be run on a semi-professional/professionally basis (NPC salary cap is NZ$860,000). Potentially having the (example 'Rebels') squad run off a $1.3-$1.5mil budget would be able to keep professional links in the removed state. It'd eat away at the $6mil saved the ARU wouldn't have to contribute, but even if $2mil of that $6mil is contributed to the non super franchise, it's still a $4mil net gain to be contributed to grassroots and keeps rugby alive and well. The 4 super rugby sides would also benefit from having an extra 4/5 games a season to sell into memberships, keep people engaged and look at sponsors for.

The (I was going to use the word loser) obvious union here that would need to shift is NZ. But at worst it is a win/lose for them, potentially a win/win considering how well the aus teams integrated. A win for them with improved NZ v Aus super games (crowds-Tv ratings-sponsors). But also a win for Aus as we have a presence in the cut state with professional rugby for fans and players to aspire to. Also a 5th teams to nurture aspiring talent to feed into the national system.

I am convinced this is the best way forward. It'd mean cutting the NRC, but who would need it with this. Our media partners would also be happy.

The NPC (going off las years results would look like this)

Div one

Canterbury
Taranaki
Tasman
Counties manukau
Waikato
Auckland
Hawkes bay
Otago
Wellington
North harbor

Div two

Bay of plenty
Manawatu
Southland
Northland
Brumbies
Waratahs
Rebels
Force
Reds
Fiji warriors

- Bottom team relegated from div one
- Playoff between second last div one and runners up div two

Your hardwicks, koteka's etc would still have played for the force just as your tuipulotu's and sa'aga's would of played for the rebels.

Thoughts?

^^^^^
In don't think the Kiwis would be remotely interested in bunging a bunch of new teams into their domestic competition.

Interested or not, they too must be held responsible for this cluster fuck of a competition that is on show. Agreeing to include 3 new teams, signing off on a 2x4 2x5 team competition and the fixture list......... bloody hell we all know what a mess that is. They are getting what they want (and rightfully so) with the reduced sides in super rugby but if putting 5 teams into their domestic competition is the medicine they have to take to hold them to account as well for their part in this mess, then so be it. I am over the notion that we are a partnership (Sanzaar), yet we only actively look after our own interests, it's bazaar and unhealthy.

On a different topic, the other thing i'd like the Sanzaar nations to put pressure on one of their members about is to say any future participation in this competition going forward for the Jaguares is dependant on them opening up their elgibility rules on who can represent Argentina. They must be more competitive. Not selecting their best players (Imhoff, Sorcino, etc) is directly impacting the creditability of the Rugby Championship. They could simply place a rule similar to the Wallabies that a certain amount of caps must be reached before they leave. Surely we have learnt our lesson with this shoddy super rugby format on making decisions that impact the quality of rugby.
 

Rebels3

Jim Lenehan (48)
The governing body bankrupt by a Kiwi businessman looking for a buck. I am not a fan of the ARU but surely this must rankle with you at least a little?

Paid to take the team off the ARU's hands, their debts wiped from the record and then despite losing $2m last year claims to be up for perhaps $10m losses? This looks like pure opportunism and doesn't help Rebels rugby whatsoever.

Support your team, not men in suits. Tell Cox to put ALL that money into the club, and show receipts.

So to summarise your post into a sentance.

'Rebels just roll over and die so the Force can survive'.


Now i hope the Force survive but questioning Cox's crediability after all he has shown through his actions this week is poor form. He could off thrown Victorian rugby into the dumpster this week and made a very tidy profit from it, but he didn't.

What's that saying.... actions speak louder than words? At the moment he's all action.

His right to take the ARU to court and hold them accountable is as valid as the Force's decision to take them to court.
 

todd4

Dave Cowper (27)
@



Here are some things I would like Tew to take on board:
x it isnt simply 18 teams killing Soup, it is also the 4 conference system, and a draw that is either intentionally bizarre or drawn up in an Asylum.
x Australia needs a National footprint to survive. If SANZAR wants Australia involved in Soup it needs to find a mechanism for this.
x I'm happy to concede that within the current Soup setup and the ARU systems we couldnt manage a piss up in a brewery, let alone 5 competitive teams. BUT right now it may be necessary to play out "stronger as five". Until 2020. Trying to cut mid-season was an horrendous decission (which btw Tew shares culpability).

Getting back to basics again a conference system with 5 Aussie teams (plus Japan on same time zone) playing interstate derbies each weekend at prime time is what's going to maintain and build fan interest. It is also this sort of product which may have the FTA channels eventually knocking on our door.

As an Aussie supporter the highlight of my rugby weekend will be watching the Tahs v Rebels as it's the only local derby being played this weekend.
 
B

BLR

Guest
So to summarise your post into a sentance.

'Rebels just roll over and die so the Force can survive'.

His right to take the ARU to court and hold them accountable is as valid as the Force's decision to take them to court.

No, to summarise my post, what has Cox actually put into the club that hasn't been from ARU funds and what right does he actually have for compensation?

The Force are taking the ARU to court to stay in the comp, Cox is taking them to court for money.

There is a big difference and as a Rebels supporter I would be asking myself how much of this compensation money will ACTUALLY go to the Rebels. It's an issue with private ownership no matter how it is set up but when he is also getting subsidised by the governing body he should be held to account.

If the Rebels are cut AND a court case goes forward for compensation, where does that money go? If the Rebels stay but a compensation case goes forward, where does that money go? Cox can say it is going to the Rebels but how do we know? Surely you need to start asking these questions instead of being all 'In Cox we trust'.
 

Highlander35

Steve Williams (59)
No, to summarise my post, what has Cox actually put into the club that hasn't been from ARU funds and what right does he actually have for compensation?

The Force are taking the ARU to court to stay in the comp, Cox is taking them to court for money.

There is a big difference and as a Rebels supporter I would be asking myself how much of this compensation money will ACTUALLY go to the Rebels. It's an issue with private ownership no matter how it is set up but when he is also getting subsidised by the governing body he should be held to account.

If the Rebels are cut AND a court case goes forward for compensation, where does that money go? If the Rebels stay but a compensation case goes forward, where does that money go? Cox can say it is going to the Rebels but how do we know? Surely you need to start asking these questions instead of being all 'In Cox we trust'.
Revenge is good.

It's what separates us from the animals and the hippies.
 

Rebels3

Jim Lenehan (48)
No, to summarise my post, what has Cox actually put into the club that hasn't been from ARU funds and what right does he actually have for compensation?

The Force are taking the ARU to court to stay in the comp, Cox is taking them to court for money.

There is a big difference and as a Rebels supporter I would be asking myself how much of this compensation money will ACTUALLY go to the Rebels. It's an issue with private ownership no matter how it is set up but when he is also getting subsidised by the governing body he should be held to account.

If the Rebels are cut AND a court case goes forward for compensation, where does that money go? If the Rebels stay but a compensation case goes forward, where does that money go? Cox can say it is going to the Rebels but how do we know? Surely you need to start asking these questions instead of being all 'In Cox we trust'.


He'd be holding accountable a shimozzle of an organisation that unless it's smacked on the bum, won't change culture.
 

Upthenuts

Dave Cowper (27)
Getting back to basics again a conference system with 5 Aussie teams (plus Japan on same time zone) playing interstate derbies each weekend at prime time is what's going to maintain and build fan interest. It is also this sort of product which may have the FTA channels eventually knocking on our door.

As an Aussie supporter the highlight of my rugby weekend will be watching the Tahs v Rebels as it's the only local derby being played this weekend.
as i see you just highlighted a major problem in the whole super rugby, aus needs local derbies, nz doesnt nz super teams are fakes made up to get national coverage, auckland vs north harbour, aucklandvswaikato, those are real local derbies, Super rugby needs to go back to being a comp above the local comp, we have npc the safas have the currie cup. really the whole playing twice in conference is only for aussies benefit, i hate it.
 
B

BLR

Guest
He'd be holding accountable a shimozzle of an organisation that unless it's smacked on the bum, won't change culture.

Can he not do that without getting some ridiculous figure out of them, would he not have to open his books to prove damages?

If he succeeds in getting this money out of the ARU, will this be dependent on the money going to the Rebels and not funnelled to Imperium as a whole?

A 'smack on the bum' isn't the same as potentially bankrupting the governing body to line a private companies pockets. And I would say it brings very little change besides enriching the Rebels organisation and causing the rest of the franchises to go without.
 

Highlander35

Steve Williams (59)
A 'smack on the bum' isn't the same as potentially bankrupting the governing body to line a private companies pockets. And I would say it brings very little change besides enriching the Rebels organisation and causing the rest of the franchises to go without.

A reversal of current circumstances? Sounds good to me.
 
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B

BLR

Guest
A reversal of current circumstances? Sounds good to me.

Imperium is an $100 million dollar business, the Rebels have more money available to them than any other team, it is up to Cox to use it.

Removing the restrictive caps(restriction of trade?) is what Cox should be looking to achieve, because even if he gets $10 mill or so off the ARU the Rebels will be in the same situation as now. Only enriches Imperium as I assume the Rebels are currently at their cap? What does extra money change?
 

Highlander35

Steve Williams (59)
Imperium is an $100 million dollar business, the Rebels have more money available to them than any other team, it is up to Cox to use it.

Removing the restrictive caps(restriction of trade?) is what Cox should be looking to achieve, because even if he gets $10 mill or so off the ARU the Rebels will be in the same situation as now.
And why don't you think that'll be exactly what will be achieved?

An out of court settlement guaranteeing both the Rebels share of broadcast revenue, and the removal​ of both the Rebels Salary Cap and restrictions on International recruitment are without a doubt the most likely scenario given how cash and asset poor the ARU are, and those are 3 things Cox was and/or has been heavily pushing for since the acquisition.
 

lou75

Ron Walden (29)
Imperium is an $100 million dollar business, the Rebels have more money available to them than any other team, it is up to Cox to use it.

Removing the restrictive caps(restriction of trade?) is what Cox should be looking to achieve, because even if he gets $10 mill or so off the ARU the Rebels will be in the same situation as now.

I take comfort from the words of Rob Clarke circa June 2015 when he said of Cox and Sidwell: "they are both fine men, both very experienced businessmen, who are well known in the Melbourne marketplace and I think the Rebels are in very safe hands" and "I've known both men a long time, Adnrew is putting his whole company behind this. He has bought 18 companies since he started it and only sold one so he has a reputation as a stayer."
 
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