Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rebels3]

I think we all understand 5 teams isn't sustainable financially in he short to medium term (why that is the case is another question entirely). But we also know that cutting Victoria or Western Australia essentially kills our game in one region which is unacceptable and in the bigger scheme of things is paramount to move the game forward. So bare with me here, I am proposing the following system.

We have to get serious but we also have to get uncompromisingly tough with not only ourself but our partners.

We drop to 4 teams in super rugby. As a pure example and to save an absolute shit fight on the boards here, I'll say the 4 teams are force, tahs, brumbies and reds. (Might as well sacrifice my own team). Now having 4 teams will appease our partners and sure up the budget sheets. Performance should improve and the viability of super rugby as a whole improve.

That's the decision we had to make to be uncompromisingly tough of ourself and keep our very important and integral partners happy.

Now the next part of the plan is where we become uncompromisingly tough with our partners. If they want us to contract at an elite level, they must also be prepared to assist and take some of the burden. They might not feel it's their responsibility but the financial viability of Southern Hemisphere rugby and elite performance of Southern Hemisphere rugby is equally entwined with the strange beast that is sanzaar if they like it or not.

So what I'm proposing here is that the 5 Australian teams to join the NPC. There will be cries from New Zealand and rightly so, but from an Australian perspective it's the only way to keep the game some what relevant in all states.

The NPC is currently made up of 2 divisions of 7 teams. Each division could be reverted to 2 divisions of 10 teams (+ Fiji to round numbers), if you include the 5 Australian franchises.

The 4 existing super rugby teams would obviously play with their existing squads, so financially they wouldn't have to pay extra in wages. Plus it would also provide much needed extra content for the franchises. The franchises would also be without their wallabies players, so the perfect breeding ground for squad members and young players to gain much needed exposure. As for the 5th team, they like New Zealand's NPC teams be run on a semi-professional/professionally basis (NPC salary cap is NZ$860,000). Potentially having the (example 'Rebels') squad run off a $1.3-$1.5mil budget would be able to keep professional links in the removed state. It'd eat away at the $6mil saved the ARU wouldn't have to contribute, but even if $2mil of that $6mil is contributed to the non super franchise, it's still a $4mil net gain to be contributed to grassroots and keeps rugby alive and well. The 4 super rugby sides would also benefit from having an extra 4/5 games a season to sell into memberships, keep people engaged and look at sponsors for.

The (I was going to use the word loser) obvious union here that would need to shift is NZ. But at worst it is a win/lose for them, potentially a win/win considering how well the aus teams integrated. A win for them with improved NZ v Aus super games (crowds-Tv ratings-sponsors). But also a win for Aus as we have a presence in the cut state with professional rugby for fans and players to aspire to. Also a 5th teams to nurture aspiring talent to feed into the national system.

I am convinced this is the best way forward. It'd mean cutting the NRC, but who would need it with this. Our media partners would also be happy.

The NPC (going off las years results would look like this)

Div one

Canterbury
Taranaki
Tasman
Counties manukau
Waikato
Auckland
Hawkes bay
Otago
Wellington
North harbor

Div two

Bay of plenty
Manawatu
Southland
Northland
Brumbies
Waratahs
Rebels
Force
Reds
Fiji warriors

- Bottom team relegated from div one
- Playoff between second last div one and runners up div two

Your hardwicks, koteka's etc would still have played for the force just as your tuipulotu's and sa'aga's would of played for the rebels.

Thoughts?

 

[wamberal]

All this talk about Cox bankrupting the ARU is amusing.


No ARU, no professional rugby in this country. Simple as that. End of the line.


Who in their right mind would put any more time and effort into the game? Nobody.

 

[cyclopath]

^^^^^
In don't think the Kiwis would be remotely interested in bunging a bunch of new teams into their domestic competition.

 

[bedandbreakfast]

It sounds like the sort of thing SA are trying to do with their 2 teams to be removed from Super Rugby.

 

[Omar Comin']

the only "winner" since we went Pro have been the "Elite" end of town. Lots of people got plenty of dosh and there are more administrators on the books. Has the game actually grown even during the "successful" times, discounting short term rises in numbers following Reds '11 and Tahs '14? Where is the organic growth in the base from that success?

So you don't think rugby grew in Australia in the late 90's-early 00's period? I think if the level of success we had in that period had been maintained until now then rugby would not be struggling like it is. But I think that level of success was never likely to be maintained and I think it's even less likely to be consistently achieved in the future given the factors I outlined.

My only other claim was that the professional level does have an impact on the grassroots. Even without success you can see that having the Force and Rebels around has led to growth at the grassroots in Perth and Melbourne. If either or both of those teams had been more successful I'd be pretty sure that participation growth would have been even greater. But presence or reach is probably the bigger issue and rugby has no, or very little professional presence in many large population areas that have NRL/AFL/A League teams.

Of course it works the other way too and probably in a bigger way, but I think it's a very circular thing - success at the grassroots leads to success at the top and success at the top helps the grassroots. My issue is more that the top level of rugby is too narrow and consistent success is very difficult to achieve. In the other codes that relationship between the grassroots and the top level is far broader, and success at the top level is almost guaranteed.

 

[Micheal]

That would be an awesome outcome.

Managing the Rebels NPC team would be difficult but potentially once the Rebels squad had been signed / allocated to other franchises the unwanted players from the Rebels and the players forced out of squads at other franchises could be allocated to such a team.

Maybe some Aus barbarians / Aus u20s / SS barbarians games could be played against the Rebels as well during the Super Rugby season to maintain some sort of presence.

It also allows us to sneakily create a "T2" trans-Tasman comp which, given the inevitable demise of Super Rugby, could become our official competition in a few years time.

I'd also say that the ARU needs to swallow its pride and go cap-in-hand to the NZRU and say "Everything here is fucked right now - can you help us develop our coaching pathways ASAP?" We've got Mick Byrne now but we need more.

Wayne Smith has just retired - get Hansen to put some pressure on him to accept a role with the ARU to review its current pathways and structures at all levels and to make some suggestions.

Perhaps get Graham Henry and McCaw to have a coaching / culture "summit" with Cheika - they'd have a hell of a lot more to say than fucking Bob Dwyer.

Maybe try to convince the ABs teams to run some coaching clinics with the different premier rugby comps around the country.

Realistically a healthy Aus is crucial for a healthy NZ, so I see no reason why, given the demands aren't too extortionate, that they shouldn't help.

Its not like three clinics from some AB personnel will turn Aus around to the point where we win the next three Bledisloes or anything of that sort. Hell, even if we did, that could be good for New Zealand. When the fuck have they lost anything recently?

It'd be like supporting John Cena.

 

[cyclopath]

That would be an awesome outcome.

Managing the Rebels NPC team would be difficult but potentially once the Rebels squad had been signed / allocated to other franchises the unwanted players from the Rebels and the players forced out of squads at other franchises could be allocated to such a team.

Maybe some Aus barbarians / Aus u20s / SS barbarians games could be played against the Rebels as well during the Super Rugby season to maintain some sort of presence.

It also allows us to sneakily create a "T2" trans-Tasman comp which, given the inevitable demise of Super Rugby, could become our official competition in a few years time.

I'd also say that the ARU needs to swallow its pride and go cap-in-hand to the NZRU and say "Everything here is fucked right now - can you help us develop our coaching pathways ASAP?" We've got Mick Byrne now but we need more.

Wayne Smith has just retired - get Hansen to put some pressure on him to accept a role with the ARU to review its current pathways and structures at all levels and to make some suggestions.

Perhaps get Graham Henry and McCaw to have a coaching / culture "summit" with Cheika - they'd have a hell of a lot more to say than fucking Bob Dwyer.

Maybe try to convince the ABs teams to run some coaching clinics with the different premier rugby comps around the country.

Realistically a healthy Aus is crucial for a healthy NZ, so I see no reason why, given the demands aren't too extortionate, that they shouldn't help.

Its not like three clinics from some AB personnel will turn Aus around to the point where we win the next three Bledisloes or anything of that sort. Hell, even if we did, that could be good for New Zealand. When the fuck have they lost anything recently?

It'd be like supporting John Cena.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Comedy gold.

 

[wamberal]

Which team does he play for?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

No offence, RN, but I don't think you know what you're talking about here. The J-League is a soccer competition for a start, mate.



The rugby comp is actually an industrial league with promotion and relegation for teams from corporations in Japan, and is the Top League. It kicks off again in two months plus change and runs through to the end of December, to be followed by the All-Japan championship knockout.



If you think South African teams are a big chance of playing in Europe then that's awesome. There are two chances of an Australian team competing in the Japanese league; Buckley's and none.



They might be interested in recruiting a few players, but that's it.

Yep I realised I got the name wrong of the Japanese league (as obviously I don't watch it) but yes do realise based on Corporations model with Toyota etc. But just because 'traditionally based on Corporations model' does not necessarily mean if offered something different with addition of oz team could not be possible. Got to try some blue sky thinking on options but yeh I know this one is a bit of a stretch as very different model.

Yeh I know pie in the sky but if we could find a home for oz side like what SA are doing that would be awesome. I was thinking best option would be involvement in NZ's provincial competition could be something worth considering but doubt Kiwi's are interested. My brain cells are devoid of ideas but gees would be good if could find alternative that lessens impact of reducing professional opportunities in rugby in Oz by 20%.

Yeh maybe we just don't have the professional options SA looking at but gees that would mean SA may end up with no less professional opportunities whilst only one potentially weakened is us which not a great result. Got to surely have some sort of plan b like SA exploring but yeh I am not clever enough to know what that could be.

Ps No offence taken Kiap as my whacko ideas are more off the cuff to see what more clever folk can come up with as clearly interested in what realistic options there could be

 

[Rebels3]

All this talk about Cox bankrupting the ARU is amusing.


No ARU, no professional rugby in this country. Simple as that. End of the line.


Who in their right mind would put any more time and effort into the game? Nobody.

What rubbish. National bodies have gone bankrupt plenty of times before, all that would happen would be an independent body or world rugby would take over on an interim basis until a new body was formed. This isn't some department shop chain which bankrupts itself, but has competitors that can offer the community the same service. At worst the government would step in and run it, but most likely the real governing body (World rugby) would take over and run the game in Australia from the offices in the U.K. This would be done until they have set up an entity to run the game here in aus. Also the professional teams, minus the force are owned entirely by the state unions, tv rights on a short term basis would have to be negotiated individually.

 

[Omar Comin']

@Rebels3 It'd certainly be a better outcome than dissolving a team altogether! But like a lot of decent ideas it relies on the NZRU being on board. So what do you propose if they're not?

 

[Micheal]

Ha ha ha ha ha! Comedy gold.

Looks its ambitious but most of my professional success has come from my own willingness to approach people with sincerity and honesty and ask them for their expertise / assistance when mine could only get me so far.

People find it somewhat endearing but I doubt Pulver et. al could swallow their pride enough to admit that everything ain't running so smoothly.

 

[BLR]

What rubbish. National bodies have gone bankrupt plenty of times before, all that would happen would be an independent body or world rugby would take over on an interim basis until a new body was formed. This isn't some department shop chain which bankrupts itself, but has competitors that can offer the community the same service. At worst the government would step in and run it, but most likely the real governing body (World rugby) would take over and run the game in Australia from the offices in the U.K. This would be done until they have set up an entity to run the game here in aus. Also the professional teams, minus the force are owned entirely by the state unions, tv rights on a short term basis would have to be negotiated individually.

The governing body bankrupt by a Kiwi businessman looking for a buck. I am not a fan of the ARU but surely this must rankle with you at least a little?

Paid to take the team off the ARU's hands, their debts wiped from the record and then despite losing $2m last year claims to be up for perhaps $10m losses? This looks like pure opportunism and doesn't help Rebels rugby whatsoever.

Support your team, not men in suits. Tell Cox to put ALL that money into the club, and show receipts.

 

[cyclopath]

Looks its ambitious but most of my professional success has come from my own willingness to approach people with sincerity and honesty and ask them for their expertise / assistance when mine could only get me so far.

People find it somewhat endearing but I doubt Pulver et. al could swallow their pride enough to admit that everything ain't running so smoothly.

It's more the notion that NZ would even consider all that to accommodate us. I cannot see it happening.

 

[Micheal]

It's more the notion that NZ would even consider all that to accommodate us. I cannot see it happening.

Perhaps, but you miss every shot you don't take.

 

[cyclopath]

Perhaps, but you miss every shot you don't take.

Sure, shoot for the moon all you want, just pack a big fucking parachute.

 

[wamberal]

What rubbish. National bodies have gone bankrupt plenty of times before, all that would happen would be an independent body or world rugby would take over on an interim basis until a new body was formed. This isn't some department shop chain which bankrupts itself, but has competitors that can offer the community the same service. At worst the government would step in and run it, but most likely the real governing body (World rugby) would take over and run the game in Australia from the offices in the U.K.

I bow to your superior wisdom, as a mere CPA with a background in professional sport management, what the fark would I know?


One thing I do know, is that the image of the game, such as it is, would be besmirched more or less beyond repair, after what would certainly be a long, highly publicised, and vitriolic legal battle. During which of course nobody would be doing anything, schools and universities would be dropping the sport, audiences of all kind would continue to plummet.


But still I can take heart at your optimism that somebody would be interested enough to tend to the smouldering pile of ashes that would be left.

 

[FiveStarStu]

One thing I do know, is that the image of the game, such as it is, would be besmirched more or less beyond repair, after what would certainly be a long, highly publicised, and vitriolic legal battle. During which of course nobody would be doing anything, schools and universities would be dropping the sport, audiences of all kind would continue to plummet.

So...what we have now?

 

[Highlander35]

Can't trust an accountant as far as you can throw them.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[kiap]

Yeh I know pie in the sky but if we could find a home for oz side like what SA are doing that would be awesome. I was thinking best option would be involvement in NZ's provincial competition could be something worth considering but doubt Kiwi's are interested. My brain cells are devoid of ideas but gees would be good if could find alternative that lessens impact of reducing professional opportunities in rugby in Oz by 20%.

All good, mate. I agree. Doesn't hurt to throw ideas up.