Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dan54]

Chicken and egg build a better designed competition and they will come.

Yep maybe, but I was answering that in the idea that it should be set up and run by an independant board, if someone saw much money in doing one I suprised we hadn't heard whispers.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yep maybe, but I was answering that in the idea that it should be set up and run by an independant board, if someone saw much money in doing one I suprised we hadn't heard whispers.

Can't remember who but poster on here made the point that Silverlake investing in NZRU commercial revenues investing in someways in Super Rugby as NZRU get a return from super rugby and bigger slice then Sliverlake get bigger slice...so maybe PE investment will help drive us towards better super rugby competition.

 

[Dan54]

Dan…
NZRU owns the commercial rights to ‘Super Rugby’ not the clubs. Super Rugby forms part of commercial component of NZRU. The commercial arm of NZR is what Silver Lakes has been approved to take an ownership stake in.

Silver Lakes will take 12.5% of all NZR Commercial revenue, including the broadcast value Super Rugby generated revenue. As you said yourself, the broadcast deal is bundled.

Basically, if it’s revenue on NZRU annual statement(Super Rugby broadcast & sponsorship revenue is), then it’s part of it. What won’t be part of it is ticket sales and sponsorship direct to the Super Rugby clubs.

If NZRU hasn’t made that clear, then that’s a bit deceitful and I feel sorry for you kiwis.

Whoops (I thought in bed last night about TV for some reason)Yep you right about tv money, but NZ franchises don't get a cut of that anyway,(see what happens when I post after being at gold club for afternoon having a beer ) they run as franchises and. Chiefs, Hurricanes etc have private owners, so there commercial arms cannot be part of Silver Lake deal even if they wanted, Super franchises do not get a vote in NZR AGMs etc, they are run as seperate entities that get a grant from NZR each year, and then have own sponsorship etc.
But I was actually trying to say that the deal is not null and void because of deal with Silver Lake deal is not done , and god only knows if it ever will.

 

[Dan54]

Can't remember who but poster on here made the point that Silverlake investing in NZRU commercial revenues investing in someways in Super Rugby as NZRU get a return from super rugby and bigger slice then Sliverlake get bigger slice.so maybe PE investment will help drive us towards better super rugby competition.

I do agree with that, and I do say that we may just find that if a private company set up a comp, we may not end up happy anyway. I suspect it would be similar to MLR in USA, where each club/franchise have to show they got the money and playing strengths to be part of it (much like the Aritipu report last year)and so we may lose teams from NZ and Aus or PI teams?

But anyway it seems we will end up with a 12 team comp at this stage, though I suspect (like you) it will be a schmozzle if they are talking about a 8 team finals etc.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I do agree with that, and I do say that we may just find that if a private company set up a comp, we may not end up happy anyway. I suspect it would be similar to MLR in USA, where each club/franchise have to show they got the money and playing strengths to be part of it (much like the Aritipu report last year)and so we may lose teams from NZ and Aus or PI teams?

But anyway it seems we will end up with a 12 team comp at this stage, though I suspect (like you) it will be a schmozzle if they are talking about a 8 team finals etc.

At this point the best would be a conference system....and if they did 8 team finals with that in place maybe ok. But if just did Round Robin with 8 team final would be less attractive. I suspect we heading to conference style system where top 4 of each six sides in respective oz and nz conference go through to the finals. I would sorta be ok with that but as stated prefer focus on on addressing root cause of lopsided results with more on the table to look at how they can even up the teams. On the latter agree the footprint then help to make the footprint strong and each teams in it.

 

[Dan54]

At this point the best would be a conference system..and if they did 8 team finals with that in place maybe ok. But if just did Round Robin with 8 team final would be less attractive. I suspect we heading to conference style system where top 4 of each six sides in respective oz and nz conference go through to the finals. I would sorta be ok with that but as stated prefer focus on on addressing root cause of lopsided results with more on the table to look at how they can even up the teams. On the latter agree the footprint then help to make the footprint strong and each teams in it.

If a conference system comes in surely a 4-6 team finals would be more than enoughit kind of seems a joke if you have a comp where only 2 teams from each conference get dropped for finals. And be interesting to see how the conference system would work, would it be same as we have had for last few years. If it did, I would suggest top 2 from each conference being guaranteed spots and other 2 to next highest places, as you need kind of balance. Keeps whichever side with a couple in finals, and let's face it if a team doesn't actually get into the top 6 they not going to go any further at knockout. I know a lot of problem last few years were some going crook that maybe teams from Aus or wherever got finals berths while being down ladder, I don't mind that so much as I still think if you not in top half of comp you not going to win it anyway. But as I say we will hopefully see something in next couple of weeks.
As for evening up teams, I still believe Ben Darwin's idea is one of best, NZ teams tend to be better because (I think) of more depth, with ITM cup being a huge part of it. I reckon if Aus played a NRC style comp using super teams without test players involved (so bringing in fringe/young players) after super rugby, you would find a bloody good way to addressing that problem, you could even add a Barbarian's type team with U23s etc. Still the best way to even up comp.

 

[half]

There is a well know saying from way back in history, hhhmmm no half the saying is well known and I hopefully can use this saying in full and relate it to rugby in Australia.

Let me start with a interview by Wayne Jackson [arguably the best AFL and sports admin in Australian history]. Anyway ,Jackson said the AFL had a war room of types and looked at the Australian sports market as a battle.

The old saying is, well the best-known part is.

“””Never underestimate your enemy”””

The not so well other part to the saying is

“”” Never overestimate your enemy””

Way back in the late 90’s say towards the end of the 99 Super Rugby & Tri Nation’s, when all was looking rosy I said and then yelled and was almost an outcast. I said move towards a national domestic competition, move away from Fox or add to Fox.

This was based on the first part of the old saying, never underestimate your enemy, as at the time league was still recovering from the Super League War, AFL was recovering lots of lost ground league had taken prior to the Super League War, soccer was in its death throws but in 1997 the lost to Iran was still being talked about and it was obvious something was going to change.

Enough explaining as we need to look at the second half of the old saying, i.e. “” never overestimate your enemy””

Rugby in Australia today maybe feeling poorly but is capable of growth, and is certainly capable of recovery. The rugby community has overestimated the difficulties in solving issues.

The core of the issue dates back to just prior to Super Rugby, when league was raiding rugby and all seemed lost.

At this point in time, unlike AFL, league and soccer, rugby had no national domestic competition, it was simply to expensive for rugby, the Shute Shield in Sydney was drawing decent crowds and rated well so why change.

BUT BUT BUT aside from the money, there has always been this “”””doubt””” we don’t have enough support to go it alone. While we would expect forwards to go into battles, rugby Admins and many fans lacked the courage because of self-doubt that rugby was incapable of growing against league and AFL.

Rugby today, in many parts of regional Australia is far more popular than either league or AFL, soccer in many of these parts is almost at zero interest. In Sydney & Brisbane there is still interest.

I fear as a code we lack the self-belief that we can go it alone, or are willing to take the pain of a few years to get up and running.

However, a point will come when lack of action will pass a point that the desire to rebuild will not be in enough hands to ensure a successful rebuild.

For the love of the holy mother, Mary, copy the US franchise models, involve private investors in owing the teams, running a competition in which the framework and structure was developed by RA. Do this now while we have under the NINE / Stann deal the revenue streams and media partner to support the move which will take 3 to 5 years.

 

[Adam84]

All i will say is private investors still need to see ‘value’ in what they’re buying into, the market forces in play in the US are vastly different to what exist in Australia and simply copying their model doesn’t necessarily translate to the Australian market.

 

[hoggy]

There is a well know saying from way back in history, hhhmmm no half the saying is well known and I hopefully can use this saying in full and relate it to rugby in Australia.

Let me start with a interview by Wayne Jackson [arguably the best AFL and sports admin in Australian history]. Anyway ,Jackson said the AFL had a war room of types and looked at the Australian sports market as a battle.

The old saying is, well the best-known part is.

“””Never underestimate your enemy”””

The not so well other part to the saying is

“”” Never overestimate your enemy””

Way back in the late 90’s say towards the end of the 99 Super Rugby & Tri Nation’s, when all was looking rosy I said and then yelled and was almost an outcast. I said move towards a national domestic competition, move away from Fox or add to Fox.

This was based on the first part of the old saying, never underestimate your enemy, as at the time league was still recovering from the Super League War, AFL was recovering lots of lost ground league had taken prior to the Super League War, soccer was in its death throws but in 1997 the lost to Iran was still being talked about and it was obvious something was going to change.

Enough explaining as we need to look at the second half of the old saying, i.e. “” never overestimate your enemy””

Rugby in Australia today maybe feeling poorly but is capable of growth, and is certainly capable of recovery. The rugby community has overestimated the difficulties in solving issues.

The core of the issue dates back to just prior to Super Rugby, when league was raiding rugby and all seemed lost.

At this point in time, unlike AFL, league and soccer, rugby had no national domestic competition, it was simply to expensive for rugby, the Shute Shield in Sydney was drawing decent crowds and rated well so why change.

BUT BUT BUT aside from the money, there has always been this “”””doubt””” we don’t have enough support to go it alone. While we would expect forwards to go into battles, rugby Admins and many fans lacked the courage because of self-doubt that rugby was incapable of growing against league and AFL.

Rugby today, in many parts of regional Australia is far more popular than either league or AFL, soccer in many of these parts is almost at zero interest. In Sydney & Brisbane there is still interest.

I fear as a code we lack the self-belief that we can go it alone, or are willing to take the pain of a few years to get up and running.

However, a point will come when lack of action will pass a point that the desire to rebuild will not be in enough hands to ensure a successful rebuild.

For the love of the holy mother, Mary, copy the US franchise models, involve private investors in owing the teams, running a competition in which the framework and structure was developed by RA. Do this now while we have under the NINE / Stann deal the revenue streams and media partner to support the move which will take 3 to 5 years.

I have always found it intriguing regards Australian rugby, that its barometer of success is to be essentially the best in the world, a ranking of 1 or 2 is considered a pass mark. But it lacks the self confidence to even think of growth in the next suburb.
We're forever yelling World Champions while at the same time hiding under the sofa.

 

[half]

I have always found it intriguing regards Australian rugby, that its barometer of success is to be essentially the best in the world, a ranking of 1 or 2 is considered a pass mark. But it lacks the self confidence to even think of growth in the next suburb.
We're forever yelling World Champions while at the same time hiding under the sofa.

Hoggy

We seem incapable of having faith in our strengths, with fear and envy peddled by the Dooms Day merchants who at their core I suspect are too scared to make decisions and take risks. However, doing nothing is by light years the greatest risks.

Adams post we are not the US is typical, no analysis of the systems, no looking at how every major successful code in the world operates in a similar manner.

 

[Adam84]

Adams post we are not the US is typical, no analysis of the systems, no looking at how every major successful code in the world operates in a similar manner.

Is that right..

What analysis have you done on the appetite for private investors in the Australian market?
What analysis have you done in comparing the private ownership of sporting teams in the US, vs Australia?

Why is it that Australia’s successful sporting codes have a significantly lower private ownership in Australia then they do in the US? Out of the 39 largest sporting clubs in Australia across AFL/Super Rugby/AFL only 5 are owned by private investors.

Melbourne Rebels, Gold Coast Titans, North Melbourne, Newcastle Knight, Sydney Swans, Brisbane Lions, West Coast Eagles, Gold Coast United are all example of teams which existed under the private investor model but failed and were handed back to the governing bodies with mountains of debt.

What analysis have you done on ownership structure and taxation benefits which exist for team owners in the US compared to Australia?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I continue to be concerned about the threat of league in hearing push for inclusion in olympics. I think the only way leagues threat to union in Asia pacific is franchise model with more free flow of players and expansion.

This would require nzru who has the most depth of players to allow for nz rugby players to play in other Asia pacific conferences (call it part of TT) and still represent all blacks, and likewise the same for RA and wallabies as second biggest country with rugby depth in the region.

 

[hoggy]

I continue to be concerned about the threat of league in hearing push for inclusion in olympics. I think the only way leagues threat to union in Asia pacific is franchise model with more free flow of players and expansion.

This would require nzru who has the most depth of players to allow for nz rugby players to play in other Asia pacific conferences (call it part of TT) and still represent all blacks, and likewise the same for RA and wallabies as second biggest country with rugby depth in the region.

First I'd heard of League looking at the Olympics, really thats a pretty long shot what audience would they be chasing, just can't see it happening, in fact the thought of a bunch of league fellas running around the Olympic village.

 

[Wilson]

I continue to be concerned about the threat of league in hearing push for inclusion in olympics. I think the only way leagues threat to union in Asia pacific is franchise model with more free flow of players and expansion.

This would require nzru who has the most depth of players to allow for nz rugby players to play in other Asia pacific conferences (call it part of TT) and still represent all blacks, and likewise the same for RA and wallabies as second biggest country with rugby depth in the region.

League at the olympics is hilarious, it's not going to happen. It's almost as ridiculous as the NFL at the olympics conversation that happens in the US every 4 years. These sports don't like the way they loose attention to this big event, particularly when some of there competitors are involved in some way, and they want to get a piece of it. Give it a couple of months and any interest and energy will be gone again. If they can't take their own international game seriously they're never going to be anywhere near olympic participation.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

First I'd heard of League looking at the Olympics, really thats a pretty long shot what audience would they be chasing, just can't see it happening, in fact the thought of a bunch of league fellas running around the Olympic village.

LeagueS ambition - I think the threat of league is real though especially in Asia Pacific. I just don’t think Nzru (wrongly) think it is much of a threat given union number 1 footy code in nz. Narrow and short term thinking that best way to remove threat of league and poaching kiwi players etc is to grow the game in Asia Pacific. Anyhow I digress - maybe one day this will be sorted out in my lifetime...

 

[Adam84]

League is a massive threat in the Asia pacific and if NZRU /RA/WR (World Rugby) aren’t careful it could trump rugby in those countries in the future

 

[Wilson]

Sure, but that has nothing to do with the olympics

 

[Rebel man]

I continue to be concerned about the threat of league in hearing push for inclusion in olympics. I think the only way leagues threat to union in Asia pacific is franchise model with more free flow of players and expansion.

This would require nzru who has the most depth of players to allow for nz rugby players to play in other Asia pacific conferences (call it part of TT) and still represent all blacks, and likewise the same for RA and wallabies as second biggest country with rugby depth in the region.

League will never make the Olympics lol. It’s not even recognised as a sport

 

[Adam84]

Sure, but that has nothing to do with the olympics

Wilson i was replying to the comment directly above i didn’t realise it was required to be related to the Olympics.

However to address the comment, i disagree that the expansion of Rugby league in the pacific isn’t related to the Olympics, or more specifically the NRL trying to get league represented as the Olympics for 2032. NRL completely understands that having league at the Olympics would be an adrenaline hit like no other, for that to occur League needs to demonstrate that it has global representation, that it’s a growth sport and that it’s relevant to the market.

TLDR; Growth of league in the Pacific region will add significant credibility to pushing League 9’s as a proposed Olympic sport.

 

[Adam84]

League will never make the Olympics lol. It’s not even recognised as a sport

They’ve actually applied to be recognised for recognition by the organisation which outlines this criteria, and it will be approved. That is the first hurdle.

Honestly League 9s is a legitimate chance of been included at the Brisbane Olympics, the single biggest thing to compete this will be the similarities and recognition of Rugby 7s. That’s something which needs to be reinforced and driven home.