Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dan54]

Again - I'm not talking about the Saveas or Mo'ungas. There is a grade of players a level or two under the ABs who could look to move to Australia to play Super Rugby here if for nothing more than a change of lifestyle. It's not all about the money. For Australia, this is more about depth than just importing Test-ready players. For NZ players, it's about not going half-way around the world (particularly in these times) to still play Super Rugby with the opportunities to earn Test status.



Why shouldn't it happen at Super Rugby level? If Australian players are getting experience at ITM Cup level which benefits their Super Rugby teams, why shouldn't they take NZ Super Rugby experience to benefit them at Test level?

Once again, there is nothing to stop them and we just had a case of Blake Gibson moving from Blues to Canes, why aren't Aus teams trying to get them? I know what you saying mate, and you right, you would think Aus teams would be getting them, if they had the money, or the players had the desire.
And if they felt it would improve their test level players by them playing in NZ teams, they can do that very thing now, in fact JOC (James O'Connor) wanted to, but RA didn't want them. It's up to them, and Marchant from England and the falnker form there came over and did same thing a few years back (I will remember his name later). But you right makes sense, but can understand why RA saying no.

 

[Derpus]

I'd be more ok with it if the insurance was actually good. All sport insurance in Australia is crap, they just have to have it for public liability

Isn't that coz medicare exists? Anyway, off topic (not that it matters in this forsaken place).

 

[Dan54]

NRL has a lately transient playing population, doesn’t matter what country or state they’re from the just follow the opportunity.

If a player has concerns that playing for team ‘x’ will harm his representative chances then he doesn’t do it, but if it offers him greater playing opportunities then maybe he will.

Aus and NZ should be working together, not trying to protect their own diminishing space of the global market.

Well if you using NRL as an example where there is basically no International and players can swap back and forth as they feel on the day, I think we have a different idea of what Test rugby is about, and I would hope that Test rugby is never the joke that League test stuff is.

 

[Adam84]

Well if you using NRL as an example where there is basically no International and players can swap back and forth as they feel on the day, I think we have a different idea of what Test rugby is about, and I would hope that Test rugby is never the joke that League test stuff is.

I don’t understand the logic, it has no bearing on test rugby. French and English rugby allow foreigners and their test rugby still seems fine. You can’t tell me State of Origin has been diminished by having Queenslanders play for NSW clubs and vice vera.

 

[Derpus]

Well if you using NRL as an example where there is basically no International and players can swap back and forth as they feel on the day, I think we have a different idea of what Test rugby is about, and I would hope that Test rugby is never the joke that League test stuff is.

In the broader context of international sport Test rugby isnt really that great.

People who follow football think of rugby the same way you do league.

 

[Dan54]

I don’t understand the logic, it has no bearing on test rugby. French and English rugby allow foreigners and their test rugby still seems fine. You can’t tell me State of Origin has been diminished by having Queenslanders play for NSW clubs and vice vera.

Funny you should say that, yes English allow foreigners in their comp, but they don't allow their test players to play elsewhere, neither do Wales etc, and I not sure , but don't think the French let anyone to play outside the country. Neither do Australia!!

 

[Dan54]

In the broader context of international sport Test rugby isnt really that great.

People who follow football think of rugby the same way you do league.

 

[Adam84]

Funny you should say that, yes English allow foreigners in their comp, but they don't allow their test players to play elsewhere, neither do Wales etc, and I not sure , but don't think the French let anyone to play outside the country. Neither do Australia!!

Yes Dan thats because the Top 14 and Premiership Rugby are domestic competitions in those countries only. This Trans-Tasman concept isn't.

Now if you want it to be domestic competition only and no TT then i'm happy with that, I enjoyed SRAu much more then the TT.

 

[Tomikin]

Always have agreed on that mate, and I have posted such. The way I suggested a full TT comp combined with Super Au and Ao should add to Aus rugby surely. Still should be a NRC behind it and REAL attempts to help grassroots rugby, like make it more attractive for kids to play game ,ie; actually put money into kids rugby, and don't sharge kids team to play (was $200 a team as RA charge per team, don't know about now).

There's one problem with this at the moment for a full TT , no kid wants to grow up and play for a team that gets hammered every week by a NZ team. Fans turn off kids turn off, and you know what they decided they dont want to play rugby.

Now if like this year they see the Reds doing well the Brumbies doing well.. then Just maybe a few will go hey its a fan game let me play.. Now there's a way to support grassroots, more people watching = more people playing = more players to choice from meaning better Wallabies.

I think it needs to be a super au and super ao and a champions league/shield... played throughout the comp will probably be better like the euro cup.

 

[sendit]

There's one problem with this at the moment for a full TT , no kid wants to grow up and play for a team that gets hammered every week by a NZ team. Fans turn off kids turn off, and you know what they decided they dont want to play rugby.

Now if like this year they see the Reds doing well the Brumbies doing well.. then Just maybe a few will go hey its a fan game let me play.. Now there's a way to support grassroots, more people watching = more people playing = more players to choice from meaning better Wallabies.

I think it needs to be a super au and super ao and a champions league/shield. played throughout the comp will probably be better like the euro cup.

Big assumption that the Australian public

1) Won’t get sick of the same 5 teams going at each other year on year

2) After a year or two start to look at super AU as a bit of a joke competition and held in the same contempt as the A-League is. I absolutely hate soccer, but I know enough to know A-League is a laughing stock of a comp

 

[dru]

Big assumption that the Australian public

1) Won’t get sick of the same 5 teams going at each other year on year

2) After a year or two start to look at super AU as a bit of a joke competition and held in the same contempt as the A-League is. I absolutely hate soccer, but I know enough to know A-League is a laughing stock of a comp

If you presume the comp remains static with no further development you might be right.

Don't think that this is what is suggested though.

 

[sendit]

If you presume the comp remains static with no further development you might be right.

Don't think that this is what is suggested though.

Even if it progresses and expansion happens

We’re seeing the negative effects on the big bash with a small comp, inferior talent. It’s on a downward trend from its initial success

I don’t know how super AU is expected to succeed in comparison with a more saturated market, less money, less popularity

 

[Tomikin]

Big assumption that the Australian public

1) Won’t get sick of the same 5 teams going at each other year on year

2) After a year or two start to look at super AU as a bit of a joke competition and held in the same contempt as the A-League is. I absolutely hate soccer, but I know enough to know A-League is a laughing stock of a comp

You know what going it alone in the short term brings us, which wont happen with a full TT, time... time to get popular time to get money in the bank, time to get more kids interested, I'm not saying forever or never play TT just for the moment we need to have a comp where there is 'uncertainty of result'. We literally have 10 years, and then again in TT the results are certain to a large extent.

Rugby is different to soccer and we seen there is a massive interest in a Rugby final in Australia, we are a contact sports country .. soccer is not a great example it has literally no superstars. We still have some of the best players in the world in Australia (plenty in the top 100-150) where the soccer has none.

 

[sendit]

You know what going it alone in the short term brings us, which wont happen with a full TT, time. time to get popular time to get money in the bank, time to get more kids interested, I'm not saying forever or never play TT just for the moment we need to have a comp where there is 'uncertainty of result'. We literally have 10 years, and then again in TT the results are certain to a large extent.

Rugby is different to soccer and we seen there is a massive interest in a Rugby final in Australia, we are a contact sports country .. soccer is not a great example it has literally no superstars. We still have some of the best players in the world in Australia (plenty in the top 100-150) where the soccer has none.

I just don’t think short term Super AU provides you with any of those things. I genuinely don’t, I think we were lucky it was a covid year and the season was timed pretty well so that we got the level of interest that it did. All the data around popularity etc is useless given the mitigating factors at hand. I don’t even think we have uncertainty of result, Super AU was pretty damn predictable, I don’t see that changing in the next 3 years or so

Don’t get too caught up in the analogy, point is the competition overall won’t be an amazing standard compared to other rugby comps, if this is the case it’ll get a name for itself similar to what the A-League has now

 

[dru]

Don’t get too caught up in the analogy, point is the competition overall won’t be an amazing standard compared to other rugby comps, if this is the case it’ll get a name for itself similar to what the A-League has now

How does this compare to Aus teams being clubbed every week by NZ, and the local derbies meaning nothing as the only action in town toward finals is on the other side of the ditch?

 

[sendit]

How does this compare to Aus teams being clubbed every week by NZ, and the local derbies meaning nothing as the only action in town toward finals is on the other side of the ditch?

To be honest I prefer that to playing in a crap Super AU comp that means nothing, personally I feel like it’s the definition of a Mickey Mouse comp

But I don’t think our trans Tasman results will be as poor for much longer. RA has started to put some real investment into our pathways and development and we’re starting to see the results of that come to fruition with the batch of young players coming through. That depth we have now is only going to grow.

Ultimately though I think we should have a TT comp where player movement between the two countries occur. I actually think it’ll happen unlike most on here, maybe not immediately but NZ aren’t going to be able to sustain themselves without us much longer. There’s only so much of the AB’s they can offer up to private investors and their super teams are way too much a part of their rugby fabric to let them fall on the wayside if they wanted to go internal and fall back on the NPC as their main comp. Unless they bypass us and go to Japan they’re going to need us eventually

 

[Rugbynutter39]

If you presume the comp remains static with no further development you might be right.

Don't think that this is what is suggested though.

RA has previously touted option to do their own 8 team domestic competition...obviously this is the ambition to expand to that size which makes a domestic competition feasible. Why people keep thinking we would just stay with 5 teams if we did our own domestic competition is beyond me. As if not oz sides they would look at adding overseas sides whether fiji or Japanese teams or something else in the mix beyond expansion in oz market.

To be honest I prefer that to playing in a crap Super AU comp that means nothing, personally I feel like it’s the definition of a Mickey Mouse comp

But I don’t think our trans Tasman results will be as poor for much longer. RA has started to put some real investment into our pathways and development and we’re starting to see the results of that come to fruition with the batch of young players coming through. That depth we have now is only going to grow.

To be honest I prefer that to playing in a crap Super AU comp that means nothing, personally I feel like it’s the definition of a Mickey Mouse comp

But I don’t think our trans Tasman results will be as poor for much longer. RA has started to put some real investment into our pathways and development and we’re starting to see the results of that come to fruition with the batch of young players coming through. That depth we have now is only going to grow.

Ultimately though I think we should have a TT comp where player movement between the two countries occur. I actually think it’ll happen unlike most on here, maybe not immediately but NZ aren’t going to be able to sustain themselves without us much longer. There’s only so much of the AB’s they can offer up to private investors and their super teams are way too much a part of their rugby fabric to let them fall on the wayside if they wanted to go internal and fall back on the NPC as their main comp. Unless they bypass us and go to Japan they’re going to need us eventually

Ultimately though I think we should have a TT comp where player movement between the two countries occur. I actually think it’ll happen unlike most on here, maybe not immediately but NZ aren’t going to be able to sustain themselves without us much longer. There’s only so much of the AB’s they can offer up to private investors and their super teams are way too much a part of their rugby fabric to let them fall on the wayside if they wanted to go internal and fall back on the NPC as their main comp. Unless they bypass us and go to Japan they’re going to need us eventually

Interestingly I notice TT competition with free flow of players is being talked about more and more and by credible commentators on the game. It is obvious solution when you got a country that has greatest depth of rugby talent but can't expand themselves but want to play others who can't compete with depth that you allow more franchise model that allows for wider and more competitive footprint. It would give a massive boost to kiwi players pathways in providing more opportunities to play rugby closer to home and not losing those players to overseas markets. I think you are right with gradual cleanout of old school thinkers in NZRU and replacement with more commercial thinker types it will happen. When though I think still could be years away at a minimum as I don't see any signs of NRZU changing its thinking or mindset.

 

[sendit]

Well the question if we do expand to 8 is;

If they are Aussie teams where is the money coming from? If it’s overseas teams, which ones? How is talent going to be spread? How is talent spread going to be managed with keeping the credibility of the competition? How are we going to attract players back to our shores to fill these spots with less money on offer?

There’s a lot of unknown variables here, especially if we don’t get overseas interest, i find it very hard to believe we’d introduce 3 new teams any time soon, or when the time comes, all 3 at once. While I support the force inclusion it has again strained our playing stocks a tad.

If you’re thinking of expansion you better hope there’s a couple of Twiggy Forests out there willing to bankroll everything

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Well the question if we do expand to 8 is;

If they are Aussie teams where is the money coming from? If it’s overseas teams, which ones? How is talent going to be spread? How is talent spread going to be managed with keeping the credibility of the competition? How are we going to attract players back to our shores to fill these spots with less money on offer?

There’s a lot of unknown variables here, especially if we don’t get overseas interest, i find it very hard to believe we’d introduce 3 new teams any time soon, or when the time comes, all 3 at once. While I support the force inclusion it has again strained our playing stocks a tad.

If you’re thinking of expansion you better hope there’s a couple of Twiggy Forests out there willing to bankroll everything

Short term I don’t see any expansion unless Fiji join the domestic part of our competition which appears now less likely...

RA flagged Japanese sides and again not sure I see that happening with the focus on their new competition. I think still long term plan that would need some catalysts like PE willing to invest in the competition say take x% share and encourage some investors to invest in new team like GRR did when they lined up investor for western Sydney team.

But yeh otherwise see short term 5 teams and 6 only if can persuade Fiji to join which is outside of TT.

 

[Joe King]

Ok, how about this: we agree to trial a full season TT for a 2-3 years, but if we discover it's hurting Australian rugby like old Super Rugby, then everyone agrees to try a domestic-focused competition instead. Deal?

Here are a couple of examples of what I mean by a domestic-focused comp:

Option 1

Have an AU and NZ conference with 6 teams each. Home and away within each conference for 10 weeks.

Then 3 x cross-conference games for each team (a way of collecting points for your own conference ranking).

Then the highest ranked team in each conference gets a week off while 2nd plays 3rd in each conference.

Then the winner of 2nd v 3rd plays the highest ranked team in each conference to determine the winner of each conference.

Then a 'Super Bowl' game between the winners of each conference.

Throw in a bye and an Anzac Bledisloe Cup game = 17 weeks.


Option 2

Have each conference of Japan, NZ, and AU, run their own qualifying comp/structure to be finished in time for a 5 week Champions League before the July Tests.

Australia and NZ would have 6 teams each.

So Japan would play their Top League, AU might have a home and away Super Rugby AU with a week off after the final = 13 weeks, and NZ might start later and simply play home and away for 10 weeks with no finals. It's up to them.

The top 2 from each conference would qualify for the Champions League. Play everyone not from your own conference for four games + a final = 5 weeks.

At same time as the Champions League, the bottom 4 AU teams would play the bottom 4 NZ teams in a shortened Super Rugby TT. Again, play everyone not from your own conference for four games + a final = 5 weeks.

In this set up it would be 18 weeks for Australia, and 15-16 weeks for NZ.