Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rebels3]

I personally don’t think NZ are doing this to harbor talent. However I think the risk is a player showing talent, then ending up signing his second contract with a NZ Super Rugby side. Because they will rightfully chase talent. This will 100% happen at some stage. For example a 19yr old gets a debut, then plays a few seasons with MP (Moana Pasifika), shows talent, the Blues come sniffing, he ends up signing with the Blues. It’ll happen within 2yrs. It’s not to blame anyone, it’s just professionalism. If an unwritten rule came in that anyone that signs for MP (Moana Pasifika) will never be pursued by a kiwi franchise, then that will limit fears.

 

[Dan54]

Ok ok dare not criticise NZRU or question whether best practice

Of course you can, we all can, but I was just pointing out where you perhaps didn't quite have all the info. I know I have been following the inclusion of MP (Moana Pasifika) and Drua as much as I can, because I think it such a giant step forward, and it worries me is all we get oh yeah but it's no good because NZR are trying to use it as way to get more players. All the rubbish about it being another NZ team, NZR pays the wages for NZ teams, MP (Moana Pasifika) have to pay and contract all their players. The other little thing if and when they do set up in Apia, will that mean samoa will be trying to steal Tongan players?
You do know that Fiji have contingency plans to set up in NZ don't you? If Covid etc is a problem, that is their plan.

 

[Dan54]

I personally don’t think NZ are doing this to harbor talent. However I think the risk is a player showing talent, then ending up signing his second contract with a NZ Super Rugby side. Because they will rightfully chase talent. This will 100% happen at some stage. For example a 19yr old gets a debut, then plays a few seasons with MP (Moana Pasifika), shows talent, the Blues come sniffing, he ends up signing with the Blues. It’ll happen within 2yrs. It’s not to blame anyone, it’s just professionalism. If an unwritten rule came in that anyone that signs for MP (Moana Pasifika) will never be pursued by a kiwi franchise, then that will limit fears.

Or perhaps Aus teams could also chase these same players? But you are right, all teams chase players coming off contract, we see it now and always will probably, but I think that is reason MP (Moana Pasifika) are using same pay scales as NZ. Did any Drua players from NRC get offers to join Aus super teams?

 

[Rebels3]

Or perhaps Aus teams could also chase these same players? But you are right, all teams chase players coming off contract, we see it now and always will probably, but I think that is reason MP (Moana Pasifika) are using same pay scales as NZ. Did any Drua players from NRC get offers to join Aus super teams?

Some front rower played for Tahs and Frank Lomani for Rebels. No player has played for Aus through it. Both capped before they signed to Aus teams.

I don’t think many Aus teams would chase as their eligibility would have to start from scratch. But if a team was in Aus, I believe they would eventually gobble up some talent from it. I guess the benefits of MP (Moana Pasifika) to NZ would be the player already resides in NZ, so eligibility wouldn’t have to reset.

 

[kiap]

^ Only other I heard of was Veitokani by Reds, supposedly knocked on the head by ARU. He went to UK.

Reasons were really twofold: (i) aussoup being quite limited on non-AE players; and (ii) FRU capturing most of the Drua through Fiji Warriors caps.

As you mention, point (ii) is a potential method going forward as well. Although, of course, it's not a barrier to Europe or Japan.

 

[Adam84]

Of course you can, we all can, but I was just pointing out where you perhaps didn't quite have all the info. I know I have been following the inclusion of MP (Moana Pasifika) and Drua as much as I can.

Ok Dan but yesterday you were saying you haven't heard a peep out of the Drua and were asking questions about the team, but a day later and you're telling other that they don't have all the info?

To address your last comment where you said the Fijian Drua won't be run by the Fijian Rugby Union because the Drua will have their own board. Placing a board over the top of a subsidiary organisation doesn't mean the parent organisation relinquishes control, especially when those board appointments are at the direction of Fijian Rugby Union and act on behalf of the parent organisation. It's just a means to delegate authority down to the next level.

Hence the concern at NZRU holding board positions on the Moana Pasifika board.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Rubbish NZR did not base them in South Auckland , MP (Moana Pasifika) did, have you even followed the formation of MP (Moana Pasifika), and why it is there? The biggest population of Pacific Islanders in the world is in Auckland, and so therefore they think a lot of players may come from there. According to Eroni Clarke and Micheal Jones ( I know what would they know compared to Turunui) the team needed to be set up where they had availability of training facilities ( and that was said well before NZR had even got involved) and they don't think Apia has this yet (Note Samoan and Tongan world rugby squads almost always train outside their countries, as they don't have facilities. That is reason why (according to Kevin Senio) they won't be playing many games in Apia and none in Tonga, but hope to mave it all to Apia when improvements are made.

I am still cynical personally as I assume MP (Moana Pasifika) adds to nz rugby player depth as MP (Moana Pasifika) selects Islanders living in nz means they would be eligible for all blacks by virtue of probably in most cases already meeting residency. Ie offering bigger pool of pro players who could be selected from for the all blacks. I assume that was the point Turuni was making.

 

[Dan54]

I am still cynical personally as I assume MP (Moana Pasifika) adds to nz rugby player depth as MP (Moana Pasifika) selects Islanders living in nz means they would be eligible for all blacks by virtue of probably in most cases already meeting residency. Ie offering bigger pool of pro players who could be selected from for the all blacks. I assume that was the point Turuni was making.

Yep don't get me wrong, I don't think all is perfect with it, but I maybe I just a bit different to a lot of posters and I like to look at positives ( I have been accused of this other threads here too). But do you really think there are many young boys of Island heritage running around in NZ (or Aus) of super level or potential that are not already in academies? So any new ones that come in will have to reside here for 5 years anyway, and by then I sure if they are good will be capped anyway. the biggest hope I have that in 3-4 years Sanoa or Tonga will get the required facilities so they can base themselves over there. See the other thing is from past experience do you really think Samoa or Tongan rugby boards have the expertise etc to actually get MP (Moana Pasifika) up and running? The main reason I think it started in NZ and not maybe in Aus) because it is where the likes of Bee Gee , Jones etc reside, and so have used contacts etc to help set it up, and outside the at this stage of Samoa and Tongan rugby boards so I imagine takes out a lot of bickering there on who would get what. Personally I think both Drua and MP (Moana Pasifika) are important inclusions in comp, and I will try and see the upside everyday.
I surprised that some haven't got upset that Fijian RU have been to NZR and made provision to set up here if required with Covid restrictions etc next year, and some may wonder why they didn't go to Australia, I was a little surprised myself.

 

[Dan54]

Ok Dan but yesterday you were saying you haven't heard a peep out of the Drua and were asking questions about the team, but a day later and you're telling other that they don't have all the info?

To address your last comment where you said the Fijian Drua won't be run by the Fijian Rugby Union because the Drua will have their own board. Placing a board over the top of a subsidiary organisation doesn't mean the parent organisation relinquishes control, especially when those board appointments are at the direction of Fijian Rugby Union and act on behalf of the parent organisation. It's just a means to delegate authority down to the next level.

Hence the concern at NZRU holding board positions on the Moana Pasifika board.

Yep well that was why I was concerned I hadn't heard anything from Fiji for a few weeks, because I had been following it. And I don't know how the Drua board will work, all I know is they having a board with CEO etc etc, which I take will be run similar to NZ and Aus franchises.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yep don't get me wrong, I don't think all is perfect with it, but I maybe I just a bit different to a lot of posters and I like to look at positives ( I have been accused of this other threads here too). But do you really think there are many young boys of Island heritage running around in NZ (or Aus) of super level or potential that are not already in academies? So any new ones that come in will have to reside here for 5 years anyway, and by then I sure if they are good will be capped anyway. the biggest hope I have that in 3-4 years Sanoa or Tonga will get the required facilities so they can base themselves over there. See the other thing is from past experience do you really think Samoa or Tongan rugby boards have the expertise etc to actually get MP (Moana Pasifika) up and running? The main reason I think it started in NZ and not maybe in Aus) because it is where the likes of Bee Gee , Jones etc reside, and so have used contacts etc to help set it up, and outside the at this stage of Samoa and Tongan rugby boards so I imagine takes out a lot of bickering there on who would get what. Personally I think both Drua and MP (Moana Pasifika) are important inclusions in comp, and I will try and see the upside everyday.
I surprised that some haven't got upset that Fijian RU have been to NZR and made provision to set up here if required with Covid restrictions etc next year, and some may wonder why they didn't go to Australia, I was a little surprised myself.

Given Fiji drua associations with nrc and grr it is disappointing but I think that reflects the power and strength of nz rugby. I would hope we can with nzru blessing / support that we can have Fiji games in western Sydney but not sure nzru going to do anything which helps their partner/ oz rugby. I don’t know why nzru don’t actually see having oz rugby strong benefits nzru and nz rugby and the strength of the game in Asia pacific and offer more support for oz rugby personally given their influence. Just all imo.

 

[Dan54]

Given Fiji drua associations with nrc and grr it is disappointing but I think that reflects the power and strength of nz rugby. I would hope we can with nzru blessing / support that we can have Fiji games in western Sydney but not sure nzru going to do anything which helps their partner/ oz rugby. I don’t know why nzru don’t actually see having oz rugby strong benefits nzru and nz rugby and the strength of the game in Asia pacific and offer more support for oz rugby personally given their influence. Just all imo.

Though to be honest, I have always heard Robinson say in NZR's opinion it is very important that Aus is strong in rugby, and never heard different from NZ. But you may of heard something different. I do agree with you I would of enjoyed Fiji playing out of Western Sydney,especially with the history of Drua etc, but they just feel they can get more support at NZ, whether they think it better run or simply that NZR is in a better situation to help them I have no idea. I sure it something quite simple and nothing sinister/nasty in it.
I think it will be interesting to hear if anything comes out of McLennan and Marinos' trio to NZ, apperently they both here at moment.

just to add something about NZ having a 6th franchise with MP (Moana Pasifika), I know what Turunui said, but I have always been under the understanding that NZR are not for having more teams here if possible, and I know a brief discussion was actually had a few years ago whether NZ rugby maybe stronger with 4 teams. Then I know there was talk of adding one top of SI too, think that was if a new comp was needed.

 

[Rebels3]

Simon Raiwalu who is the head of high performance in Fiji has been at pains on Twitter to say some of the information been reported on them is incorrect, and apart from from running through a process to gain entry the Drua side will have no Aus or NZ influence and is not committed to one side or the other.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Doesn't seem that long ago - 200 pages, tops - that there were people on here insisting that in order to level the playing field NZ should be required to put out six, seven, or even eight teams but now MP (Moana Pasifika) get a provisional licence & there's people worried it'll give NZR a bigger player pool to draw from.....

 

[kiap]

Doesn't seem that long ago - 200 pages, tops - that there were people on here insisting that in order to level the playing field NZ should be required to put out six, seven, or even eight teams but now MP (Moana Pasifika) get a provisional licence & there's people worried it'll give NZR a bigger player pool to draw from...

Are they the same people?

Otherwise it's a pointless post.

 

[dru]

Doesn't seem that long ago - 200 pages, tops - that there were people on here insisting that in order to level the playing field NZ should be required to put out six, seven, or even eight teams but now MP (Moana Pasifika) get a provisional licence & there's people worried it'll give NZR a bigger player pool to draw from...

I don't think increasing Kiwi teams is necessarily the answer, but yes it was proposed.

IMO, for the comp to be sustainable you ultimately need some form of levelling of the talent across the teams that are competing. I dont think it practical to achieve this by adjusting national teams - shrink in Aus more horrifying than expand in NZ, but both problematic. I think we should encourage player movement, not the opposite as being suggested to protect PI resources.

Do we really think that MP (Moana Pasifika) and Drua will be competitive with the top Kiwi teams? I suspect they will, over time, have greater difficulty than say, Force and Rebels.

The issue appears to be that NZR/RA/PI sought funds from WR (World Rugby) on the basis of supporting the PI Nations. That is not the easy equation that some seem to think it is.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Are they the same people?

Otherwise it's a pointless post.

My point is not issue with expanding player pool for NZR but rather questioning the supposed interests of NZRU for supporting PI Rugby vs own NZR interests (hence pushing for independant body etc etc). I am actually on record more about open borders policy to establish bigger footprint for Asia Pacific rugby footprint and pro competition than about more NZ teams.

 

[Dan54]

My point is not issue with expanding player pool for NZR but rather questioning the supposed interests of NZRU for supporting PI Rugby vs own NZR interests (hence pushing for independant body etc etc). I am actually on record more about open borders policy to establish bigger footprint for Asia Pacific rugby footprint and pro competition than about more NZ teams.

I was under the impression that the MP (Moana Pasifika) board was to be completely self run once they were running properly in a few years.
And the other thing I suspect is happening with Hamish and Leapfrog being in NZ, will be setting up an idependant board to run Super or whatever the new comp will be called (and I don't think it will be super).
All in all I feeling positive that although there will be still work to do, that we are going to end up with a good comp that includes MP (Moana Pasifika) and Drua, and I really wonder why a few seem so sure it will come crashing down. Well there a few who have got very little positive to say about it anyway.

 

[Derpus]

I was under the impression that the MP (Moana Pasifika) board was to be completely self run once they were running properly in a few years.
And the other thing I suspect is happening with Hamish and Leapfrog being in NZ, will be setting up an idependant board to run Super or whatever the new comp will be called (and I don't think it will be super).
All in all I feeling positive that although there will be still work to do, that we are going to end up with a good comp that includes MP (Moana Pasifika) and Drua, and I really wonder why a few seem so sure it will come crashing down. Well there a few who have got very little positive to say about it anyway.

Drua should be great. Heeeeeavily skeptical about MP (Moana Pasifika). Independent management will also be great.

2/3 aint bad.

 

[Set piece magic]

With any luck MP (Moana Pasifika) has the realistic effect of watering down NZ talent and making them less competitive overall

 

[Derpus]

With any luck MP (Moana Pasifika) has the realistic effect of watering down NZ talent and making them less competitive overall

I would probably only water down the Blues?