What to do, 5m out, against a set defense

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Quite right Gnostic. This furphy about a lack of interest in forward play is a comfortable fantasy that some in other countries (usually in the NH) like to indulge themselves in. All of this, of course, completely forgets that every successfull Wallaby team has had a pack that matched and often surpassed that of the opposition. As I continually point out: you cannot win the game without the ball. And who secures possession in upwards of 80% of cases? The forwards.

I will readily admit that the standard of the forward play in Australia took a turn for the worst in the middle noughties, but does anyone believe it is substantially worse now? Look at what our full strength pack did on the EOYT in 2009. And we wouldn't have beaten the Boks and the All Blacks last if our pack was demonstrably weak.

 

[Finsbury Girl]

91 wallabies Bruce - had everything you want and more - the pack - not only extremely physical but technically brilliant. Coupled with some of the best backs you will ever see. A supreme outfit from 1 to XV - but remember the hard yakka the pigs put in some of those games - Western Samoa and Wales in particular.

BTW I'd use the flying wedge! (which incidentally I was amazed to see attempted by Parramatta in the '82 mungo grand final that was on the Fox the other day - what a game!!)

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

FG, I think the wedge is illegal now.

 

[Bruce Ross]

91 wallabies Bruce - had everything you want and more - the pack - not only extremely physical but technically brilliant. Coupled with some of the best backs you will ever see. A supreme outfit from 1 to XV - but remember the hard yakka the pigs put in some of those games - Western Samoa and Wales in particular.

Totally agree, FG, but I think we have forgotten to some extent the qualities that made that team so great. In my view we are in no position to emulate that physicality across the park this year.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Which is not to say that it would be impossible in the future.

 

[DPK]

FG, I think the wedge is illegal now.

It is indeed:

10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
Flying Wedge and Cavalry Charge. A team must not use the ‘Flying Wedge’ or the ‘Cavalry Charge’.
Penalty: Penalty Kick at the place of the original infringement.

‘Flying Wedge’
The type of attack known as a ‘Flying Wedge’ usually happens near the goal line, when the attacking team is awarded a penalty kick or free kick. The kicker tap-kicks the ball and starts the attack, either by driving towards the goal line or by passing to a team mate who drives forward. Immediately, team mates bind on each side of the ball carrier in a wedge formation. Often one or more of these team mates is in front of the ball carrier. A ‘Flying Wedge’ is illegal.
Penalty: Penalty Kick at the place of the original infringement.

 

[Bruce Ross]

It is an oft repeated fallacy, often from north of the equator, that Australians do not appreciate forward play especially scrums. What isn't appreciated is the constant one out rubbish that we are seeing too regularly. What I dislike in Australian forward play is the lack of strength and the lack of dynamism so many of our top forwards play with.

So much emphasis is placed on "work rate" with little or no examination of what that "work rate" actually achieves.

I love Rugby for the tight forward play, the test of strength and guile. How is any of that see in the one up League style "hit ups"? Where is the team work of the scrum and the maul? The interplay between the backrowers breaking from the scrum?

It is an interesting lesson in history to see how we got to the point we are today, starting with the Macqueen constant recycle game which called for a sort of homogeny in the forwards and backs and a blurring of the roles in many ways. That morphed into the Eddie Jones League style game all based around speed to the breakdown. The set pieces were largely ignored and if it wasn't for two or three world class locks the shambolic state of the scrum would have been repeated at the Lineout. Along comes Connolly and tries to turn around the set pieces but relied too much on the same old players and tried to change what they had been playing (many of them their whole professional careers) hence they got smashed at the set piece and out muscled at the breakdown as speed gave way before strength. Now we have Deans and there have indeed been some changes, but they focus more around a generational change with players like TPN & Pocock. The issues for Deans is that the set piece of the scrum is still being compromised by selection of players out of position Sharpe, and non-scrummaging props (Ma'afu, Daley and Alexander) and secondly the focus of "work rate" as I previously stated.

I love forward play, I do not like stodgy one out pick and drives again and again with no imagination and not impact, and then get told that I just do not appreciate "forward play".

Gnostic, although I tend to promote the "fallacy" that "Australians do not appreciate forward play especially scrums", I think that there are a lot of insights in your post with which I agree.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Which is not to say that it would be impossible in the future.

We live in hope.

 

[Finsbury Girl]

:lmao: Gents - flying wedge was a joke

 

[Finsbury Girl]

Totally agree, FG, but I think we have forgotten to some extent the qualities that made that team so great. In my view we are in no position to emulate that physicality across the park this year.

I think we definitely have the materials Bruce, but need the coaching. Looking across the state sides there are some very fine players in most forward positions but yes technique is what we are missing. We need to start them at a young age alas I fear the junior game these days is far too "de-powered" / "mum friendly".

 

[DPK]

:lmao: Gents - flying wedge was a joke

Don't mind me, I love quoting the Lawbook.

 

[Ruggo]

:lmao: Gents - flying wedge was a joke

You could also go with the wall. I haven't seen it used in years.

 

[Bullrush]

I think we definitely have the materials Bruce, but need the coaching. Looking across the state sides there are some very fine players in most forward positions but yes technique is what we are missing. We need to start them at a young age alas I fear the junior game these days is far too "de-powered" / "mum friendly".

Hmmmmm......I don't know that technique is your problem. I'd say it's more the 'mongrel' aspect or the mentality of hard-bastard-ness of physical forward play that seems to be missing in Aussie.

 

[Proud Pig]

Hmmmmm......I don't know that technique is your problem. I'd say it's more the 'mongrel' aspect or the mentality of hard-bastard-ness of physical forward play that seems to be missing in Aussie.

I don't think mongrel is missing in Aussie Rugby at all but we do seem to have a bit of an obsession at Super rugby level with mobile front rowers who can score tries.
Personally, I am horrified by a prop scoring a try anyway other than a 3m pounding sprint or a push-over.
I want my props to be scrummage and clean out monsters first and foremost and then worry about poncing around near the wingers aiming for the try line. Ben "Back back back back" Alexander I am looking at you.

 

[fatprop]

Hmmmmm......I don't know that technique is your problem. I'd say it's more the 'mongrel' aspect or the mentality of hard-bastard-ness of physical forward play that seems to be missing in Aussie.

yeah, it is the application to get off the ground and get at it again, and again, and again.

 

[vidiot]

This is a great thread, though it still triggers flashbacks to Christchurch last year when the wallaby attack lapped against the all blacks like the wake from a canoe against a cliff. How about "Pray Giteau is not at first receiver"?

 

[rugbysmartarse]

slightly on thread, why dont forward, especially locks, look to go over the ruck more often? I've seen a good number of occasions when the ball is almost rght on the line and there is no one defending behind the ruck. Even if there is a stray halfback, getting someone like sharpe, Douglas or simmons up and over the ruck onto the turf cat be that hard?

 

[Gnostic]

FG, I think the wedge is illegal now.

Anybody else remember the "Vanguard".

Small bloke usually the halfback or a winger received the ball and was lifted of his feet by a player (usually the props) under each arm and driven backwards. The other forwards bound around them in much the same was as the flying wedge. This was banned under the same law because if I recall rightly the number o serious injuries including broken backs, loss of kidneys etc to the poor bastard in the "Vanguard" position.

 

[Gnostic]

Hmmmmm......I don't know that technique is your problem. I'd say it's more the 'mongrel' aspect or the mentality of hard-bastard-ness of physical forward play that seems to be missing in Aussie.

Technique is crap in too many instances. Our "work rate" whores do not have the physical strength (due to training for speed & "work rate") or technique to actually clean out at the ruck. They tend to get in a wrestle and how many times do you see them just pull the opposition player over the ruck to get him off his feet? This just disrupts the ball as much as if the defender had dove over the ruck. Secondly and more importantly Oz packs do not hunt as a "pack" in most games. In the first two games this year the Tahs pack did and since then they have reverted to type. It is about technique.

 

[Gagger]

Has this turned into another self flagellating "we're so fucking crap in the forwards, we just lucked it into 2nd" thread? Getting stale

Watched extra time from round 6 on a plane last night and I'd wager up to 1/2 of the tries from all teams came from line drives. Not sure what the problem is?