What to do, 5m out, against a set defense

[fatprop]

I am getting a little bit frustrated with the nose down, bum up, crawl to the line

It seems to be a marginal way to collect points.

Once the defense is set, it is just as likely that one of the one out crawlers will be isolated and turned over.

We seem to remember the successes and wipe the regular failures from our minds.

Watching the Bulls v Canes match, I wonder if the "Steyne" option of taking the 3 points if the ball goes static may become a more viable option across the teams then a number of flops, hoping for quick ball.

Thoughts?

 

[rugbysmartarse]

3 points is still only a chance - so you are weighing up a 67% chance at 3 points against a 50% chance at 5 or 7 points. I suspect the players are trained to back themselves.

 

[Aussie D]

it is boring to watch the nose down, bum up, crawl to the line from a fan persepective also. What I don't understand is teams tend to play more open rugby until the get within 5 metres and then go ultra conservative. Teams need to develop more set plays to use specifically 5 metres out or less. As much as it pains me to say this look at some Melbourne Storm videos from about 2009 and how they approach it 5 metres out to break down defences (not exactly the same with the turfhumpers I know). They seemed to be able to consistently find holes in set defences with players coming back at angles against sliding defences. Other than this where are the wrap-arounds these days? the draw-and-pass? (as opposed to the current hold the ball running at an angle toward your support player and passing so defences can easily slide approach) or the draw all players to one side of the field and kick for the opposite winger play?

Kicking is another aspect of the game that shits me as IMHO we under utilise our kicking options - not enough kick passes or mid-field bombs (with good support play) and too much aimless kicking.

 

[Blue]

Drop goal.

 

[Richard D. James]

The 5 metre scrums get to me as well. A team has some dominance over the other scrum so it goes down, the ref blows the penalty, they call for the scrum again. Repeat ad nauseam, until some one goes early, or the oppo put on a good hit and you lose the ball.

When your scrum is that dominant you should be able to score using any number of simple moves, the 8 and 9 down the blindside, simple backline moves, etc. It seems people get into this mindset that if our scrum is dominant we have to keep doing it until we get a penalty try, which is such a low percentage tactic.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

bullshit. The tahs had me and the missus on the edge of our seats with hat series of scrums. Ditto (good) driving forward play. Cross field kicks and mid field bombs are for league fans. I think the cross field kick is the loest percentage pay available.

It was interesting to see in the reds game wher Samo tried to pick and drive over the line, but genia grabbed the ball off im (from between Samo's legs) to give it to Ioane for the try.

I suppose what we dont see on screen very well is the defensive or attacking line set ups as the camera is focussed on the close up action. Its up to the halves to decide where the better scoring chance is.

 

[barbarian]

I saw something very interesting from the Cheetahs on Saturday. They had the ball about 3m out, doing the standard pick and drive. Then Pretorius called some set play where a pod of forwards took the ball up but immediately went to ground at the first hint of contact, and layed the ball back with a long-arm place. Instantly Pretorius scooped up the pill, darted a couple of paces sideways and popped an inside ball to a prop at full tilt, who scored IIRC. All this was done in the space of about five seconds.

That is the sort of simple set play that would result in points more often than not.

 

[Gnostic]

I have to ask where have all the great set moves gone. Not just from set peice but from breakdown ball.

If anybody has it have a look at the 1991 Wallabies V England game at SFS pre-RWC. NFJ takes ball forward offloads to Poido on outside. Willie O coming around the corner on one of his acute angles inside Poido and who offloads to him for the try virtually untouched. All executed between 5 and 10 metres from the line against a set defence. Where have these types of moves gone? All we see is one out barge up with perhaps the addition of a second forward and sometimes back driving them on the hip. Gone is the second wave attack and work off the ball to a large degree.

 

[Godfrey]

This is just silly, you see set moves all the time. Teams are conservative near the try line because the chances of scoring through simple ball retention are higher. Dont confuse poor execution by teams like the Waratahs with a lack of set moves.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

I have to ask where have all the great set moves gone. Not just from set peice but from breakdown ball.

If anybody has it have a look at the 1991 Wallabies V England game at SFS pre-RWC. NFJ takes ball forward offloads to Poido on outside. Willie O coming around the corner on one of his acute angles inside Poido and who offloads to him for the try virtually untouched. All executed between 5 and 10 metres from the line against a set defence. Where have these types of moves gone? All we see is one out barge up with perhaps the addition of a second forward and sometimes back driving them on the hip. Gone is the second wave attack and work off the ball to a large degree.

play what's in front of you...

 

[Gnostic]

play what's in front of you...

I think a few too many of them as well as posters spend too much time playing with what is in the front of them.

As for the comment about blaming the poor execution of the Waratahs, that is exactly my point what have they tried to execute except one out barges at the defence often with a driver on the hip?

Similarly the Brumbies, Force and Rebels. Reliance on a JOC (James O'Connor) type individual to break the line is hardly constructing something.

The Brumbies showed some very good set moves from set piece on the weekend, but we used to see dynamic co-ordinated play at all times from Oz teams through the game. Where has it gone? Why do we have this predominance of one out barge at the line just like unlimitted league?

 

[Scotty]

I like what the Bulls do with some wider forward pods.

I also noticed what Barbarian is referring to, and am sure I recall this happening in another game recently as well, by a South African team. Was a little more than 5 out, but it was also effective. (Dropping to the ground and quick recycle draws defensive players in and allows the next wave to attack at a reduced fringe). Good tactic.

 

[Utility Back]

I saw something very interesting from the Cheetahs on Saturday. They had the ball about 3m out, doing the standard pick and drive. Then Pretorius called some set play where a pod of forwards took the ball up but immediately went to ground at the first hint of contact, and layed the ball back with a long-arm place. Instantly Pretorius scooped up the pill, darted a couple of paces sideways and popped an inside ball to a prop at full tilt, who scored IIRC. All this was done in the space of about five seconds.

Yeh good point barbs, they did it against the tahs as well from a 15 out, only just missing the try.

Good point about the storm too I think, if open play and angles can get you all the way up the field, surely it can get you over the line. Ofcourse there is always added pressure thereabouts.

 

[Moses]

I saw something very interesting from the Cheetahs on Saturday. They had the ball about 3m out, doing the standard pick and drive. Then Pretorius called some set play where a pod of forwards took the ball up but immediately went to ground at the first hint of contact, and layed the ball back with a long-arm place. Instantly Pretorius scooped up the pill, darted a couple of paces sideways and popped an inside ball to a prop at full tilt, who scored IIRC. All this was done in the space of about five seconds.

That is the sort of simple set play that would result in points more often than not.

It was a great play, started off with the one out pick and drive then they switched to three man pods. First pod hit it up, then after a slow reset to really sell the dummy the second pod got the ball but left it behind. The defence stopped the pod, meanwhile Sarel is darting round the side. Very clever.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Defences are generally too good to get scored on through the 5m out pick and drive. I think the tactics need to be mixed up a bit to try and stretch the defence. You aren't asking enough questions of the opposition by playing in such a narrow channel IMHO. I'd like to see the ball spread wider or an inside ball to a runner trailing through. Getting the ball into the hands of the player most likely to break the line or suck defenders in should be the order of the day I think.

 

[Moses]

Just give it to Cliffy or TPN

 

[Bruce Ross]

The tahs had me and the missus on the edge of our seats with that series of scrums. Ditto (good) driving forward play.

You are indeed a fortunate man, rsa, marrying a woman who is a true aficionado of rugby. There were long periods during the game when I was bored to tears but it certainly wasn't during "that series of scrums". My only complaint was when the justice of the peace thought he should lecture the front rowers on the intricacies of scrummaging or still more so when he stepped between the packs to daintily point out with his foot where the centre line of the scrum should be. I was wishing that one of the players with a sense of mischief would roar out "Engage" so that he would be engulfed by the advancing hordes.

I wouldn't exchange Sydney for any other city but I can't help feeling I was meant to be born in any other rugby playing country than my own.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

I think a few too many of them as well as posters spend too much time playing with what is in the front of them.

i resemble that remark!

 

[barbarian]

I felt for the ref actually. If the Chiefs are intent on playing silly buggers with the scrum, what is he supposed to do?

Blow a penalty, you say. OK, and then the Tahs call another scrum and the mad cycle continues.

 

[DPK]

I think refs should be more vigilant in making teams use ball even though the scrum has collapsed. A few resets is fine, but seeing the ball make it to the feet of the number eight, with the half ready to scoop it out before being halted by the ref blowing up for a resets is very frustrating for viewers.

I love a good scrum more than anyone but I don't like penalty tries off scrums.