What is wrong with the Tahs
- Thread starter Ghibli
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Tilse is our fourth choice prop. He's probably not that bad for a fourth choice prop. Kind of hard to recruit someone better when all you can offer them is a spot on the bench when someone is injured.
Fitzpatrick has been injured for two years. He is a talented young player but he probably is lucky to have one chance left before he is pushed aside. Either 2013 will be his year or he'll never be heard of again.
Mumm would start at several other provinces. This is his last season with the Tahs anyway.
Alcock wasn't our first choice at the start of the year and I think has been really good. Against the Force in Perth he was close to the best player on the field. I think he has come a long way in 2012.
McCutcheon was unlucky to get injured on his return. With Hooper coming, his time as a Waratah has probably ended.
Halangahu should probably be moved on. He is a journeyman and is never going to set the world alight.
Carter has had a poor season but last season he was probably our most consistent player. I still think he has plenty to offer and his enthusiasm has been really important for the team in recent years.
Fitzpatrick has been injured for two years. He is a talented young player but he probably is lucky to have one chance left before he is pushed aside. Either 2013 will be his year or he'll never be heard of again.
Mumm would start at several other provinces. This is his last season with the Tahs anyway.
Alcock wasn't our first choice at the start of the year and I think has been really good. Against the Force in Perth he was close to the best player on the field. I think he has come a long way in 2012.
McCutcheon was unlucky to get injured on his return. With Hooper coming, his time as a Waratah has probably ended.
Halangahu should probably be moved on. He is a journeyman and is never going to set the world alight.
Carter has had a poor season but last season he was probably our most consistent player. I still think he has plenty to offer and his enthusiasm has been really important for the team in recent years.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
We have no one who wants to stand up and lead the side. BB should have played to the corners and Elsom should have been revving up the piggies to maintain the pressure to keep them down there. Who do you see yapping away and slapping guys on the bum to egg them on...
When the opposing 1/2 back bumps off your tighthead 1 metre out to score that is an embarressment.That was the game.
Until they acknowledge to themselves and their teamates where they are deficient, nothing changes.but then according to their coach they did so many good things last week. So no one needs to do any soul searching, they must be hitting their KPI's.
They have lost so many tight games this year because they don't have a hard edge, they clearly don't want it as much as their opponents.
Good teams win the tight ones, and games when they do not play well.
The Tahs seem to lose all the tight ones,and according to their coach play well when they don't win.
Remember they committed to have a number of fan forums this year?
wonder what happened to that?
Time for a blue pill and a nana nap I think...
jay-c
Ron Walden (29)
when the ceo suggests a fan forum it tells me only one thing: that the ceo has run out of ideas
the fan forum does nothing but highlight and draw attention to the fans anger> in essence encouraging it
it was a fkn disaster, horrible management decision and stinks of poor leadership
nobody at the tahs is making tough decisions> jus cowards worried about saving their own skins
the fan forum does nothing but highlight and draw attention to the fans anger> in essence encouraging it
it was a fkn disaster, horrible management decision and stinks of poor leadership
nobody at the tahs is making tough decisions> jus cowards worried about saving their own skins
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
I've said it before the Tahs remind me so much of Leinster about 6 years ago. A team packed full of talented internationals, a decent pack and some exceptional backs. But come the big occasions they just don't perform.
At times the pack would flatter to deceive and look really good only to be monstered by the opposition when it really mattered. The backline at times was slick and plenty of individual talent. But one or two injuries and it would all fall apart. Just like the Tahs we supporters were left scratching our heads wondering why such talented players never really lived up to their potential as a unit.
Now arguably Leinster have been the best club side in the world over the last 5 years. It wasn't one things that changed that made it work at Leinster and trying to find one magic thing to change at the Tahs wont work either.
Some of the things that helped Leinster I think are also needed at the Tahs:
New coaches brought a fresh approach, sometimes when a team and their coaches are used to doing just OK then it can be hard for them to turn things around as they are all in it together. This means they are less likely to make the tough calls needed to put things right. Tahs definitely need to get rid of Gaffney and maybe make changes in other coaching areas too.
Attitude was a very big thing at Leinster and I think it's also true of the Tahs. There's a perception that being the valiant losers is acceptable. Talk of being unlucky, focusing on the positives after defeats etc. No mater what is said in training giving this type of public perception feeds back into the teams thinking. Leinster changed this with the younger players following the example of BOD and not settling for defeat. The language used after games changed and the passion to improve and not accept coming close but not delivering the victories started to drive the players on.
At Leinster some players who were part of the old culture either retired or were moved on and the new players coming in bought into the new way of thinking.
Change of captain. BOD is and always will be a legend at Leinster but the decision to step down as captain was a very good one. The captain of a club doesn't always have to be the best or flashiest player. Leinster picked a workhorse in Leo Cullen to take over the captaincy and players like him make perfect captains as they'll just get on with it. BOD already had enough pressure and coupled with his injury record it was best to allow him just to focus on his own game. IMHO the captain should be a guy who will play pretty much every game and do the hard graft without grabbing the headlines.
Leinster also moved away from an over reliance on the big names to win games for them. 5-6 years ago the reason Leinster were dangerous to opponents was because BOD, Hickey, Dempsey etc. might produce something special and score the winning try. The Tahs are similar in that it's the big names in the backline that are relied upon to produce the winning try or break. The problem with this is that when those players are injured or in poor form then nothing happens in the backline. Today Leinster are dangerous because of the way the backs link together and the fact that we have 2-3 back up for every positions (who most of Aus probably never heard of, except for Lee Grant) who can slot in and do almost as good a job as the established internationals.
The philosophy now at Leinster is about how we play creating opportunities and danger for our opponents. Then on top of that moments of individual brilliance can give something extra. Leinster change players and move them around the backline all the time but generally it doesn't have any negative affect on performance. The Tahs should be aiming for something similar. Always having to have your best players available and playing in their prefered position to win games makes it difficult to do well in a competition that runs over a season.
Leinster also added some grunt in the pack but blended this with athleticism. In the pack you either have to be among the best at playing a certain style or you need to have the option to mix things up. Munster when they were dominant is a good example. They were the best team in the world at 10 man rugby and they knew that when they went to the tank in the last 20 minutes to close out a game they would have more than the other team. Now Munster are rebuilding their pack after a raft or retirements and the decline of some players. They can't dominate like they used to so they are bringing through players who give them more options.
The Tahs forwards are a good unit and when they decide to take up the ball themselves they can make ground. But they shouldn't always stand toe to toe with the opposition. As stated by others in the thread some NZ and SA packs wont be pushed around. So when you come up against those types of packs you need to run them around the park. So having a mix available would mean rather than picking the best 8 guys every week. At Leinster players like Healy, Strauss, Cronin, Van Der Merwe, Jennings, McLoughlin are swapped in and out of the team based on the type of game they want to play. The same goes for Boss and Reddan at 9 depending if they want to keep the ball in the forwards or move it quickly to the backs. If the Tahs can get into a similar position they will be more potent.
In Europe we always talk about clubs being successful because they have very good squads rather than the first 15 being the best. If there's daylight between the first choice in a position and the next guy, then unless the guy in the jersey is an exceptional talent, there's a problem. The Tahs need more players who can slot in seamlessly when there are injuries, this can be done in one of 2 ways. You can go the French route and have a squad full of international stars, not likely to happen with the salary cap. Or you can go the Leinster route and develop young players, future international, and trust them to perform. Leinster have a conveyer belt of quality backs and is starting to produce more quality forwards.
I'm not saying they can copy Leinster exactly and magically everything will fall into place. But there are definitely some good pointers on where things can be improved from looking at the Leinster model.
At times the pack would flatter to deceive and look really good only to be monstered by the opposition when it really mattered. The backline at times was slick and plenty of individual talent. But one or two injuries and it would all fall apart. Just like the Tahs we supporters were left scratching our heads wondering why such talented players never really lived up to their potential as a unit.
Now arguably Leinster have been the best club side in the world over the last 5 years. It wasn't one things that changed that made it work at Leinster and trying to find one magic thing to change at the Tahs wont work either.
Some of the things that helped Leinster I think are also needed at the Tahs:
New coaches brought a fresh approach, sometimes when a team and their coaches are used to doing just OK then it can be hard for them to turn things around as they are all in it together. This means they are less likely to make the tough calls needed to put things right. Tahs definitely need to get rid of Gaffney and maybe make changes in other coaching areas too.
Attitude was a very big thing at Leinster and I think it's also true of the Tahs. There's a perception that being the valiant losers is acceptable. Talk of being unlucky, focusing on the positives after defeats etc. No mater what is said in training giving this type of public perception feeds back into the teams thinking. Leinster changed this with the younger players following the example of BOD and not settling for defeat. The language used after games changed and the passion to improve and not accept coming close but not delivering the victories started to drive the players on.
At Leinster some players who were part of the old culture either retired or were moved on and the new players coming in bought into the new way of thinking.
Change of captain. BOD is and always will be a legend at Leinster but the decision to step down as captain was a very good one. The captain of a club doesn't always have to be the best or flashiest player. Leinster picked a workhorse in Leo Cullen to take over the captaincy and players like him make perfect captains as they'll just get on with it. BOD already had enough pressure and coupled with his injury record it was best to allow him just to focus on his own game. IMHO the captain should be a guy who will play pretty much every game and do the hard graft without grabbing the headlines.
Leinster also moved away from an over reliance on the big names to win games for them. 5-6 years ago the reason Leinster were dangerous to opponents was because BOD, Hickey, Dempsey etc. might produce something special and score the winning try. The Tahs are similar in that it's the big names in the backline that are relied upon to produce the winning try or break. The problem with this is that when those players are injured or in poor form then nothing happens in the backline. Today Leinster are dangerous because of the way the backs link together and the fact that we have 2-3 back up for every positions (who most of Aus probably never heard of, except for Lee Grant) who can slot in and do almost as good a job as the established internationals.
The philosophy now at Leinster is about how we play creating opportunities and danger for our opponents. Then on top of that moments of individual brilliance can give something extra. Leinster change players and move them around the backline all the time but generally it doesn't have any negative affect on performance. The Tahs should be aiming for something similar. Always having to have your best players available and playing in their prefered position to win games makes it difficult to do well in a competition that runs over a season.
Leinster also added some grunt in the pack but blended this with athleticism. In the pack you either have to be among the best at playing a certain style or you need to have the option to mix things up. Munster when they were dominant is a good example. They were the best team in the world at 10 man rugby and they knew that when they went to the tank in the last 20 minutes to close out a game they would have more than the other team. Now Munster are rebuilding their pack after a raft or retirements and the decline of some players. They can't dominate like they used to so they are bringing through players who give them more options.
The Tahs forwards are a good unit and when they decide to take up the ball themselves they can make ground. But they shouldn't always stand toe to toe with the opposition. As stated by others in the thread some NZ and SA packs wont be pushed around. So when you come up against those types of packs you need to run them around the park. So having a mix available would mean rather than picking the best 8 guys every week. At Leinster players like Healy, Strauss, Cronin, Van Der Merwe, Jennings, McLoughlin are swapped in and out of the team based on the type of game they want to play. The same goes for Boss and Reddan at 9 depending if they want to keep the ball in the forwards or move it quickly to the backs. If the Tahs can get into a similar position they will be more potent.
In Europe we always talk about clubs being successful because they have very good squads rather than the first 15 being the best. If there's daylight between the first choice in a position and the next guy, then unless the guy in the jersey is an exceptional talent, there's a problem. The Tahs need more players who can slot in seamlessly when there are injuries, this can be done in one of 2 ways. You can go the French route and have a squad full of international stars, not likely to happen with the salary cap. Or you can go the Leinster route and develop young players, future international, and trust them to perform. Leinster have a conveyer belt of quality backs and is starting to produce more quality forwards.
I'm not saying they can copy Leinster exactly and magically everything will fall into place. But there are definitely some good pointers on where things can be improved from looking at the Leinster model.
mudskipper
Colin Windon (37)
last week here we had people saying here how outsatanding, Rodinson, TPN, Palu and Dennis are and should be walk up Wallabies. Friday night they showed their collective worth... the Wallbaies will never get the Bledisloe Cup back with that effort....
Our forwards were on top for most of the night against the Bulls.
TPN didn't play and Dennis played about 15 minutes.
I agree that Robinson didn't have a great game, mostly due to a missed tackled on Hougaard which cost us a try.
TPN didn't play and Dennis played about 15 minutes.
I agree that Robinson didn't have a great game, mostly due to a missed tackled on Hougaard which cost us a try.
Merrow
Arch Winning (36)
The biggest problem with the Waratahs is that they believe their own hype just a little too much. Barnes may be a fantastic player but is possibly one of the worst decision makers in rugby. I think Kurtley Beale is looking pretty safe in that 10 jersey for the Wallabies atm. For the Waratahs, it's probably time for a Brumbies-style clean out me thinks, although as a Brumbies supporter, I'm quite happy for them to continue as they are.
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
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Well thought through 'Bardon' and a lot of the lessons are relevant for NSW
There were a few other factors that drove the Leinster turnaround.....Cheika, Timing & Alignment;
Cheika
His no BS approach was the catalyst for massive change.
He was different, wasn't 'one of the boys' or a drunk and quickly gained the respect and trust of the key leadership group.
He also quickly realised that they had a soft underbelly against the likes of traditional rivals Munster and other teams knew it too. His astute recruitment of Elsom gave Leinster's pack some steel and accelerated the growth of younger players Heaslip and Healy.
Timing
They were fortunate to have such an outstanding group of players peaking around the same time. Credit to them as some were developed locally, others recruited from the UK, and a few standouts from overseas (Contepomi & Elsom). Such was the belief and mission, they were even able to squeeze some a few extra good years out of a couple of veterans.
Alignment
After some pretenders were weeded out, the whole club pulled together including the Directors, CEO, Coach/Support Staff, Captain and Players. Brutal self assessment and appraisals of each other and the team's performance were introduced and ego's were left at the door.
Now, let's be honest, how would the Waratahs go with this brutal approach under their current Board & CEO leadership?
Brumby Jack
Steve Williams (59)
The difference between Leinster and the Tahs is that Michael Cheika wanted to coach Leinster.
Honeestloy, if you have nothning of snensese or wurth to add, best not abd.
mjw
Larry Dwyer (12)
As for the need for a skills coach, this is surely a problem with every Aust side, not just the Tahs.
mjw
Larry Dwyer (12)
Played a couple of games off the bench.
mjw
Larry Dwyer (12)
You seem to forget Sitaleki Timani. Not development enough for you.
mjw
Larry Dwyer (12)
Didn't see him in the game day 22 there very often.
That would be me, ms. To infer I was saying they "should be walk up Wallabies" is stretching the truth somewhat, or having a lend of yourself, your choice. An "Oz 22" (or, more probably, a squad of 30, as I'm not sure what the initial test teamsheet will be), there's no reason why they shouldn't feature in selections. Having seen the Tahs play every one of their Australian games this year except in Perth, the Tahs pigs are one of the better forward packs going around.
P
Paradox
Guest
My concerns with the Tah forwards are:
- They can't secure enough quick ball
- They don't go the 80. The seem to have these periods where they dip.
- Discipline issues (Robinson and Mumm are giving away dumb penalties. I would expect the backrow to give away penalties but not your second row and loose head in general play).
They are a very powerful unit be just lack a bit of polish in those areas. They do however create enough opportunities for the backs who aren't clinical enough.
- They can't secure enough quick ball
- They don't go the 80. The seem to have these periods where they dip.
- Discipline issues (Robinson and Mumm are giving away dumb penalties. I would expect the backrow to give away penalties but not your second row and loose head in general play).
They are a very powerful unit be just lack a bit of polish in those areas. They do however create enough opportunities for the backs who aren't clinical enough.
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