What is wrong with the Tahs

[rugbysmartarse]

I think it's prety clear what's wrong with the Waratahs...

They are... Waratahs.

Delicate flowers...

Maybe they need to be rebranded?

A relaunch is a good idea. How about the cats?

 

[biggsy]

To many Kings and Joey's school rugby players, Well thats what I keep hearing from my Angry Brother in law Kiwi born ALL BALCK and Tah's... Its painfull and weird at the Same time.....

 

[Slim 293]

A relaunch is a good idea. How about the cats?

They could potentially be the Lions after this year?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think you are missing my point.

To judge a team on the field, let's start from the beginning.

*they have a squad of thirty
- u can judge recruitment, retention, balance, speculate on performance
*they play a game
-you can judge performance based on a variable of conditions, opposition, etc
-you can judge coaching through game plan and execution

Wy is what happened in the last 17 years relevant to that performance?

As with injuries, every player in every team is at risk if them sure.
TPN - knocked out being tackled
McCutch-broken ankle in a tackle
Fitzpatrick- knee in a tackle
Alcock - appendix
Rocky - hamstring (but don't count as it's existing although the staff so far have managed his return well)
Mitchell - broken ankle in tackle
Turner - hamstring during game

Which of these selections of injuries is the Tahs fault?
It's a factor, it's a variable, it's not every year, it should be judged on when it happens.

I want the Tahs to win, but I believe the comments about no passion or excuses are excessive.

P.s. They sacked Ewen cos so many people complained about the way he coached. they listened to fans and commentators who knew better. Not for pollitics.

you know what WJ you're following the right team


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[Gnostic]

They did the same thing to Timana Tahu. He could have been a freak in rugby, if he'd gone anywhere else. He needed gametime, in the centres. You cant expect someone to learn their position at Super rugby level. If you're not going to start him, then give him 80mins every weekend at Shute Shield level, where he can actually learn how the game works, outside of Tahs training sessions. His game for Aus A against......someone in the Pacific cup comp, he was an absolute weapon. He so obviously had the talent, yet was fucked around by the Tahs, until Deans decided 'fuck it, I can see talent there' and picked him against the Boks.


And we know how that turned out.

Tahu had a massive attitude problem and was the last in a huge line of League Wingers who didn't deserve the funding thrown at them. Tahu's issues continued when he returned to League so the Tahs had nothing to do with it. Deans selecting him was just one of his first monumental stuff ups that we have seen a few of since.

 

[Ruggo]

Sorry, having a fan forum for feedback and talking honestly about problems is wrong due to the size o the forum? They drew 16000 to a game, 120 to a talk fest is a good turn out.

120 people is a load of crap and Poorly concieved PR stunt. I guess the 15820 people who came to the game you mention have views that are not worth being heard. This is a good example of the problem. They fail to fully acknowledge they have a problem.

 

[Caputo]

Well what about the dalliance with Andrew Johns?

 

[Gnostic]

WJ - I find it amzing that the Tahs have been pretty stable this year regardless of the injury/suspension stats you quote and when you compare them to the Reds who lost 5 10's and yet still put on some credible performances it puts your arguments in perspective.

Nothing you have said over the last two years has changed, just the names on the sheet. Nothing has changed with the skills execution of the players either. They still cannot pass in front of a moving receiver, they still kick to the opposition instead of for the line or to a position where they can pressure for possession or pressure the receiver. They still do not work hard off the ball to support the ball carrier. GThey still have a reliable pack that effectively competes with most others most of the time but then inexplicably fails to show up for two or three games a season. They still wait until the season is virtually over for them before they get frantic and play like they really really want to win.

I will predict here and now that unless massive changes are made (and given the contracts so far announced, and no changes to coaching/support or Board) then Foley will probably walk or be walked to the door next year as they crash and burn again with again no improvement in the key aspects above.

Let me make it plain, I do not give a rats about win/loss ratios. I do not care if they make the finals. All I want to see is them play with the skill and application that we have seen from the Rebels for the last two weeks. If they do that I will be happy. If they don't I wil continue my crusade to see serious change or if I don't it is because my Tahs jerseys have gone to Vinnies, my Pay TV subscription cancelled and I have walked away.

 

[Caputo]

Geez I do'nt believe it but Tahs missing Al Baxter. They did not replace him, Ryan stepped up but who has come in as a developing Prop.

Greg Peterson has not seemed to have improved compared to below. Other Aus States are developing Locks, Sam Carter Brumbies, Hugh Pyle, Cayden Neville and Luke Jones at Rebels and Phoenix Battye at Force

 

[I like to watch]

You know how they developed these players?
They gave them a run.

 

[Ignoto]

Of course, the medical staff know better than us, but I'm not convinced it's going to be a great idea.

From what I've heard, a lot of the outside medical staff are quite shocked at Drew's second "miracle" return.

 

[waratahjesus]

Gnostic - how do you measure success, on skill application?
You say me comparing to the reds, then compare to two games the rebels have played? I believe the Tahs played with skill, application and belief against both the sharks ad clan, so you should be happy based on that.

The Tahs have not been stable in the back line at all. We have played 4 or 5 different centre pairings, a couple of fly halfs, and about 4/5 different back three combos.

I'm not and never have said that things can't be improved but I think that people take the negative (again of which I'm not denying and arguing) and try to apply it to things that don't need it,

Our pack is great, we have developed and are currently blooding and developing more great players in it.

Our back line has some young promising players, it's a problem at the moment, but I fail to see the doom and gloom. (especially with the strike power out injured)

I'm quite excited for what is developing, there having a terrible year, but teams without application and passion get beaten by 50 (see the way the force played last night) they dont go down fighting.

I agree the skill application of the backs in particular shits me, it does, as far as I know from my years watching and playing rugby, it's a coaching and confidence problem, that yes has plagued the Tahs for a few years now, I fail to draw a connection between this and the front office though that many in here suggest.

 

[Badger]

The problem with the Tahs is they fail to acknowledge that they have a problem.

Articles like this seem to indicate that would be unlikely.

Our season not over: Waratahs

Georgina Robinson
May 13, 2012

THE Waratahs flew out of Sydney yesterday for the road trip from hell in South Africa and, even though their season looks to be swirling down the gurgler, they have a fighter in coach Michael Foley.

NSW slumped to their seventh loss of the season when they conceded a late try to go down 27-24 at Allianz Stadium on Friday night.

''We won't give up at all mate. We'll chase every point there is to be had right until the last game of the year,'' former Wallabies hooker Foley said. ''You can't get away from the disappointment when you don't get the result, particularly when - for large parts of the game, the majority of the game - you're playing it as you want and you're putting a very good side under pressure. We've got guys that are relatively inexperienced but, at the same time, the guys bounced back after a very disappointing loss [against the Brumbies] last week and I'm sure they'll bounce back again.''

There are five games left for the Waratahs, plus a bye after the Tests that will help them prepare for the last two clashes, both derbies, against the Brumbies and Reds. A maximum of 29 points are available if - and it's a big if - the Waratahs win every match with a bonus-point for tries. Even that may not be enough to secure a wildcard. The Waratahs must sweat on the Brumbies and Reds crumbling at the end of the season.

Winger-turned-fullback-turned-centre Adam Ashley-Cooper has seen stranger things happen.

''It's not over until it's over,'' he said. ''Anything can happen. I've been in some pretty weird situations leading into the end and missed out - and there's been other teams that have just somehow made it, so we've got to give ourselves every possible chance.

''For us … South Africa's massive. We need to come away from South Africa with, hopefully, 10 points. If we don't come away with points, you can bet it's over.''

That's two wins or, for the ''one-game-at-a-time'' Waratahs, one win against likely finalists the Stormers in Cape Town on Saturday, then one win against the Cheetahs in Bloemfontein.

Counting in their favour is the presence of three important players: Test winger Drew Mitchell, Test hooker Tatafu Polota-Nau, who is recovering from concussion, and Bernard Foley, who was one of the Waratahs' good news stories this year when he rose to the challenge of becoming the side's starting fullback.

Counting against them is that last year - the first season featuring 15 teams - six losses was the most conceded by a team that made the finals. There is also the inexperience of some players. The kind of inexperience that cost them the match against the Bulls and that Michael Foley, Alan Gaffney, Scott Bowen and Greg Mumm have desperately tried to coach through to maturity.

''The challenge to be one of the better sides in this competition is as much about skill as it is about the decisions you make, and I think we're getting better at the decisions,'' Foley said.

''There are some guys out there who aren't our first-line players, aren't guys with a lot of experience and, I think, they're getting great exposure to those moments in games that are critical.''

That the exposure might be too little too late could be the cruel epilogue to the Waratahs' 2012 season. But Ashley-Cooper heard the cheers at Allianz on Friday and hopes there is some faith left in his team. ''We're doing everything we can,'' he said. ''You can see in our performances that we do care, it means something to us, it's just little bits of detail that are hurting us in the end. We're aware that we have to win every game from here on in to give ourselves every possible chance to make the finals.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/our-season-not-over-waratahs-20120512-1yjgh.html#ixzz1ukZJw7Ry

I will continue to support the Tahs in the hope they will get their act together and win a Super Rugby title in my lifetime. But judging by the article above, I maybe waiting in vain. Why are they clinging onto the hope of making the finals?

I am no rugby expert, but even I could see that any serious hope of challenging for the title in 2012 were pretty much shot when they were 1 and 3 at the start of the season. To continue to suggest that they are any hope of making the finals now is laughable. Sure, there is a mathematical chance they could make it, then there's reality. Even if by some miracle, they made the finals, it would be fool's gold and they would be no more than cannon fodder for the teams above them.

The coaching team could perhaps use the remainder of the season to test out new combinations and give up and comers the chance to display their wares in a match environment rather than dreaming of a finals berth.

 

[Gnostic]

I measure success on skills application like anyone WJ, dont try and cloud the issue or take it off on a tagent.

1. pass the ball in front of the received, not at his feet or above his head or behind him. Name me a Tahs player who has demonstrated the ability to pass the ball more than 10 metres with any accuracy with consistancy.
2. Work off the ball. Show me an example of a Tahs player working off the ball. I see plenty of them standing in position waiting for the ball to come to them for their hit up. Like I said yesterday, even Morty can summons the energy in his 1000 year old legs to loop Vuna for the pass. Look at Beale's work to looping and backing up. Barnes has done it once this year.
3. Kicking - how many times do we have to say it. Kicking isn';t bad per se. It is the useless aimless kicks that do nothing but hand back possession. Go through the Bulls and Crusders games and count up how many times the Tahs kicked the ball into a position where they couldn't pressure the reciever let alone contest for possession.

You were excited last year and didn't see the doom and gloom then either. Even when I said Hickey was finished as four rounds. Seems Cannon agrees with me but doesn't want to burn his bridges either and hedges his bets with his closing paragraph.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/s...-at-nsw-waratahs/story-e6frf4qu-1226354047704

I will not discuss this any further with you WJ as you refuse to even consider that the Tahs are anything but unlucky, year on year. I ask you a simple question though, the same as I have posed before, why are the same results (in terms of the above points) and the same mode of play seen every year, regardless of who is on the roster? Please do not reiterate your points about making finals etc.

I'll give you a quick insight too, I recently got to speak an older Tahs playerand it was intriguing the things he told me, such as there was never a real belief in the side that they would win the title, and there was a feeling that they had done well to get where they had.

 

[waratahjesus]

I measure success on skills application like anyone WJ, dont try and cloud the issue or take it off on a tagent.

whats off target?

1. pass the ball in front of the received, not at his feet or above his head or behind him. Name me a Tahs player who has demonstrated the ability to pass the ball more than 10 metres with any accuracy with consistancy.
as i said, not dismissing or making excuses, that injury, combination, confidence and form have contributed to this as well as coaching, no excuses, I've mentioned several times is unacceptable.

2. Work off the ball. Show me an example of a Tahs player working off the ball. I see plenty of them standing in position waiting for the ball to come to them for their hit up. Like I said yesterday, even Morty can summons the energy in his 1000 year old legs to loop Vuna for the pass. Look at Beale's work to looping and backing up. Barnes has done it once this year.
i take it from this your only mentioning backs, our forwards are quite good at this (although have been having a twenty minute nap in the second half at times) our back line as mentioned above is not performing. NSW backs (not consistent but they do do it) Sarel, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Foley & Kingston, Barnes last few games i believe he has been staying alive and backing up a bit more to, but not to great levels.

3. Kicking - how many times do we have to say it. Kicking isn';t bad per se. It is the useless aimless kicks that do nothing but hand back possession. Go through the Bulls and Crusders games and count up how many times the Tahs kicked the ball into a position where they couldn't pressure the reciever let alone contest for possession.
4
our kicking isn't good it has been in the past, its not a "THINGS HAVE BEEN LIKE THIS FOR EVER" it a "THING THATS LIKE THIS NOW", how would you address it other than clean out the front office and dump all the players and coaches?

You were excited last year and didn't see the doom and gloom then either. Even when I said Hickey was finished as four rounds. Seems Cannon agrees with me but doesn't want to burn his bridges either and hedges his bets with his closing paragraph.
i know Hickey, he was leaving at the end of the year regardless, the loss in round 4 didn't kill off the season at all, why would you be doom and gloom to something you support, why would you want to destroy something rather than lift it back up? boys made the finals with a horrible injury list and a fair few intrusive issues along the way, i see them as signs of a mentally strong resillient team able to overcome obstacles, you see it as completely negative with no way out.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/s...-at-nsw-waratahs/story-e6frf4qu-1226354047704
i agree with brandon, 160 for a jersey is to much, that is hardly a NSW centric problem.

I will not discuss this any further with you WJ as you refuse to even consider that the Tahs are anything but unlucky, year on year. I ask you a simple question though, the same as I have posed before, why are the same results (in terms of the above points) and the same mode of play seen every year, regardless of who is on the roster? Please do not reiterate your points about making finals etc.
i have not once said that they were unlucky and i would prefer it if you actually read my posts instead of deciding to simplify and ignore them. your blog was very well written and i applaud your stance on your beliefs, but blogs are opinions and yours is different to mine, i have agreed with you on several points but one i will never agree on is the generalisation that every year can be judged on the same fundamentals. i have said this several times but you keep going back to the "seen every year" when i started attending games regularly the Tahs were terrible, we were lucky to win set pieces and i remember cheering once when we won a lineout due to the rarity of the fact. the tahs changed, they got better, they found consistancy, players changed, ways they scored points changed, players were developed, retired, injured, changed, stolen, traded, moved on, things were not and have never been the same every year and that is what i object to in this debate. if thats the way you see it thats fine and full respect to you, i however put forth my view and defend and debate it as i see fit as a fan of a team i support. i don't just want my team to play well, i want them to win out of respect for the team the players and the fans. if making the finals is papering over cracks to you fine, but to me it shows a far greater application that should be judged on its individual merit, not divided by cut out passes or kicks for touch. these are skills that play a part, but there brush strokes in a much larger painting.

I'll give you a quick insight too, I recently got to speak an older Tahs playerand it was intriguing the things he told me, such as there was never a real belief in the side that they would win the title, and there was a feeling that they had done well to get where they had.
head ups, if its a problem thats been going on forever, maybe the "older tahs player" was the problem and you could have addressed and gotten more information from him in order to fix the problem. if you wanna discuss what he said and who you talked to so perspective and understanding can be added to this statement feel free, otherwise its just mid less conspiracy theory.

 

[Cutter]

This is a battle which has been fought for as long as humans have had opinions. A classic battle between Optimism and Pessimism.

 

[Gagger]

It's the variability of play within a game that gets me. The way they can come out of the gate playing flawless footy, and then play dirge like that never happened just 15 minutes later.

Against the Bulls they played some great pick n go and runners into the transition zone for about 15 minutes at the start and had the Bulls back peddling 50metres at a time. Then, it was as if someone said "fuck that" and we had lateral shuffling punctuated with the worst telegraphed 1 and 2 man off the ruck mindlessness.

How does this happen with such regularity? To me it says something about on field leadership and decision making. The fact that the team regularly rotates captains and has a shmozzle of a leadership structure says it's not taken seriously

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Gnostic, wheres the evidence to support cannons claim that foley is the best tactical forwards coach (whatever that actually means when you boil it down)?
Wasn't he the restarts coach (whatever that actually means when you boil it down) for the wallabies?
I dont know whether in the rarefied atmosphere from which cannon writes receiving a kick off constitutes a tactical issue but I do know that the tahs restart "tactics" centre on letting the ball bounce and/or letting their opponents regather.
Another thing I don't quite get is why, when the head coach played a lot of tests in the front row, he has an assistant of roughly the same age who was also a front rower to coach the forwards. This seems like an opportunity to avoid responsibility by introducing another layer of management.
In this case there, surely, cannot be any suggestion that foley is concerning himself with wider issues of the shape of the game the Tahs play or their philosophy? If that is what Foley is responsible for he is due for the dole queue.


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[Inside Shoulder]

Gnostic - how do you measure success, on skill application?

At the moment with the tahs my measure of them doing a good job at this would be if I could watch them play without wanting to strangle someone or see what else is on TV.


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[I like to watch]

The problem for me is the Tahs perception is they are going really well, just a little bad luck here, an injury there, a bad call by a ref, just a couple of poor passes that time etc etc
They think they should be leading the fucking comp.
What they should be thinking is one more missed tackle, one more poor pass or whatever & I am going to be playing in the Shute Shield.
We supporters are just as bad, when Betham was called up the consensus was "WTF he is not up to this" but he went all right. Give another dozen of these guys a run and you might see some urgency and commitment to play for 80 minutes from the current squad.