Waratahs vs Chiefs - Super Rugby R 6 2020, Friday 6 March @ 7.15pm @ Wollongong

[hifflepiff]

I'm pretty sure it was reported that he wanted to leave the Rebels so that he could get more game time at No 15. So far, hasn't got any at the Tahs. Looks like he's in the same sort of mind frame as he was recently at the Rebels.

Seems like an attitude problem, I understand he wants more game time at 15, but you can't just throw a sook if things don't go your way.

That said, this is obviously all conjecture, we don't know whats going on behind closed doors

 

[Wilson]

It's an old GAGR cliche, but the blame for the second half meltdown lies mainly with the forwards, not the outside backs.

For two supposed 'tough guys', I thought Dempsey and Swinton were completely MIA. As usual our second rowers just made up the numbers, and our reserve front row didn't cover themselves in glory either.

At least three times we were just pushed off the ball at the ruck, even though we had numbers there. That's just effort, nothing more. Tafa looked OK off the bench, give him a run. Brings more than Staniforth, surely.

Was really disappointing from Dempsey in particular, he was having a very good first half and he's one of the more senior guys in the side now, really should be standing up.

 

[molman]

Tahs pourous defence this season to me in direct correlation with the loss of Steve Tandy as defence coach

You could be right. He was pretty well regarded and he did seem to tighten up the Tah's defence last year. I don't feel like the Waratahs as a club have been good on defence for a long time. There is a real attitude issue where they seem to be able to get revved up for some games but don't seem to be able to do it consistently. Maybe they need a better team psychologist rather than a better defence coach. Because I know they’d all say the right things about how much they wanted it but their actions don’t match.

 They remind me a bit of the Wallabies in that game against the Argentines where Cheika blasted them at 1/2 time and they suddenly remembered how to play Rugby.

I just look at Harrison last night, he just stood out so much because he was a player who really wanted it. Bell too. They are young and lack in some aspects but so much more heart on display.


The other area I'd be curious about is their fitness. A lot of people used the word lazy for that second half in particular. I do wonder if fitness is a factor too. There was a stark difference is some of their play and decision making which can also be a byproduct of fatigue.

But yes, a better defence coach would help. Some of their positioning around the ruck was so poor giving Weber those opportunities. I remember seeing Hopper having to shuffle McCauly into position for a block because he seemed clueless where to stand.

I question if an ex-League-y like Phil Bailey brings the nous to coach defence both holistically and to the specific details that are important in this game.

 

[Up and under]

Now that the Waratahs season is almost done and dusted for the year, I'd like to see Rob Penney trial the rest of the Australian U20's boys in the Tahs squad in preparation for next year.

Tizzano, Donaldson, Harris, Walton and Reilly. They have all been playing well for the Waratahs "A" side who are currently undefeated, and all seem to possess a touch of class to their game.

With Beale, Mason and possibly Hunt and Clark moving on at the end of the year, it would be a good opportunity to see what they offer.

If the solid form displayed by their U20's teammates at the other Aust franchises is any indication, I dare say it would be a positive move by Penney.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

It's an old GAGR cliche, but the blame for the second half meltdown lies mainly with the forwards, not the outside backs.

For two supposed 'tough guys', I thought Dempsey and Swinton were completely MIA. As usual our second rowers just made up the numbers, and our reserve front row didn't cover themselves in glory either.

At least three times we were just pushed off the ball at the ruck, even though we had numbers there. That's just effort, nothing more. Tafa looked OK off the bench, give him a run. Brings more than Staniforth, surely.

For mine Swinton is one of those guys who looks tough and tries to be tough but isn't actually tough (ref: Bullrush's analysis of mongrel vs appearing like a tough guy). It's something I've seen in a few blokes who have come out of Uni's system over the years who smash it in Sydney first grade but are found wanting at the next level.

 

[molman]

Now that the Waratahs season is almost done and dusted for the year, I'd like to see Rob Penney trial the rest of the Australian U20's boys in the Tahs squad in preparation for next year.

Tizzano, Donaldson, Harris, Walton and Reilly. They have all been playing well for the Waratahs "A" side who are currently undefeated, and all seem to possess a touch of class to their game.

With Beale, Mason and possibly Hunt and Clark moving on at the end of the year, it would be a good opportunity to see what they offer.

If the solid form displayed by their U20's teammates at the other Aust franchises is any indication, I dare say it would be a positive move by Penney.

I think there are games still to be won, but yes I think you do have to start thinking about building for next year. Play Maddocks at 15 if Beale is off. Give Tafa a starting run and see if Gamble and Tizzano can step up to the next level. Also start Moeroa on the bench.

 

[Silverado]

Now that the Waratahs season is almost done and dusted for the year, I'd like to see Rob Penney trial the rest of the Australian U20's boys in the Tahs squad in preparation for next year.

Tizzano, Donaldson, Harris, Walton and Reilly. They have all been playing well for the Waratahs "A" side who are currently undefeated, and all seem to possess a touch of class to their game.

With Beale, Mason and possibly Hunt and Clark moving on at the end of the year, it would be a good opportunity to see what they offer.

If the solid form displayed by their U20's teammates at the other Aust franchises is any indication, I dare say it would be a positive move by Penney.

Spot on. Our own under 20s like Harrison, Bell, Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase) , and Ramm have been our better performers

 

[wamberal]

For mine Swinton is one of those guys who looks tough and tries to be tough but isn't actually tough (ref: Bullrush's analysis of mongrel vs appearing like a tough guy). It's something I've seen in a few blokes who have come out of Uni's system over the years who smash it in Sydney first grade but are found wanting at the next level.

Yeah, and that is one of the problems that their hegemony has created. I would argue that the Tahs would be a lot stronger if Uni did not dominate a large segment of the player stocks. Playing SS is a good learning experience, but not if you are part of the overwhelmingly dominant so-called Club in the competition.


We desperately need some way of spreading the player stocks, so that competition in all the grades is more even. Players learn and develop when they are under pressure, not when they are part of a team that dominates the comp.

 

[formerflanker]



The other area I'd be curious about is their fitness.

Kurtley's two dropped balls in the final minutes were certainly fatigue-related.

 

[formerflanker]

I think there are games still to be won, but yes I think you do have to start thinking about building for next year. Play Maddocks at 15 if Beale is off. Give Tafa a starting run and see if Gamble and Tizzano can step up to the next level. Also start Moeroa on the bench.

Hasn't Penney been saying "we are rebuilding" since before the season kicked off?
If so, your selections are right on the money because simply trying to win was not one of Penney's Key performance Indicators right from the get go.


I note Stuff.nz is quoting Penney: Waratahs coach Rob Penney has unleashed a mighty spray on his wounded playing group, labelling their record 37-point defeat to the Chiefs as "embarrassing" and "not acceptable".

 

[Drew]

For me, starting front row needs to play longer minutes. Second row needs to be tinkered with as what we’ve got now isn’t working. 8 and 6 need looking at, (Maybe a pooper type set up with tizzano or gamble playing 6 and just going hard?). 8 needs to be more physically dominant. Moroa at 12, straighten the direction of play up, give the team front foot ball, won’t attempt dodgy grubbers every third possession. Don’t know if we have the cattle this year to do much about some of these weaknesses, but to me (and probably others) they’re issues that need addressing ASAP.

 

[molman]

Hasn't Penney been saying "we are rebuilding" since before the season kicked off?
If so, your selections are right on the money because simply trying to win was not one of Penney's Key performance Indicators right from the get go.


I note Stuff.nz is quoting Penney: Waratahs coach Rob Penney has unleashed a mighty spray on his wounded playing group, labelling their record 37-point defeat to the Chiefs as "embarrassing" and "not acceptable".

Yeah, he has (said he's rebuilding) but he wont be happy as that performance was going backwards from the last game. I think most coaches can accept loosing to a better team if they see their own them doing their best, but the Tah's aren’t. They are loosing rather than being beaten.


I think you can see that there is some good coaching occurring, the maul, LO, scrum are all reasonable. Some of the attacking play and skills are looking good too. The defence is just dismal as is some of the attitude. The jogging back. Lack of urgency. Sloppiness. It speaks more of cultural challenges for the coaching staff.



I've actually found some of Penney's open honesty refreshing after the closed shop approach of Gibson. It's not the first time this season he's (publicly) called them to account. I think for too long some of the players in the NSW system haven't owned their performances and it's really not good enough.

I'm hopeful that next year after Penney actually gets to assess and refine the squad we might start to see the real potential of this team.

 

[Viking]

It's an old GAGR cliche, but the blame for the second half meltdown lies mainly with the forwards, not the outside backs.

For two supposed 'tough guys', I thought Dempsey and Swinton were completely MIA. As usual our second rowers just made up the numbers, and our reserve front row didn't cover themselves in glory either.

At least three times we were just pushed off the ball at the ruck, even though we had numbers there. That's just effort, nothing more. Tafa looked OK off the bench, give him a run. Brings more than Staniforth, surely.

Staniforth has been disappointing. I remember him at the Brumbies being really physical at such a young age in his few chances. I thought he would develop into a hardworking imposing lock. But he is M.I.A most of the game.

Agree Dempsey has been one of the biggest disappointments.

 

[molman]

Staniforth has been disappointing. I remember him at the Brumbies being really physical at such a young age in his few chances. I thought he would develop into a hardworking imposing lock. But he is M.I.A most of the game.

Staniforth looks tired. I remember seeing him in the change room before the game and he just looked tired before he even ran onto the pitch.

He might still come good. I didn't think Arnold played his best until he was in his older years.

 

[formerflanker]

won’t attempt dodgy grubbers every third possession.

Yet another attitude issue.
Grubbers are done instantaneously by players with supreme confidence or those who are very unsure of themselves.
Definitely a coaching matter.

 

[Kenny Powers]

You will see more intent in the Woolworths toilet paper aisle than in the Waratahs.

To many players cruising thru to the Tah’s as schoolboy rockstars. They bring too many deficiencies in their game forgiven at the Schoolboy level and they are usually defence related. They are also not mentally tough enough not having to fight and claw their way thru competitive and professional tier below Super Rugby. Although this is more a structural issue with rugby in Australia. They just don’t have to fight as hard to earn and keep their spots as in other countries.

 

[formerflanker]

You will see more intent in the Woolworths toilet paper aisle than in the Waratahs.

To many players cruising thru to the Tah’s as schoolboy rockstars. They bring too many deficiencies in their game forgiven at the Schoolboy level and they are usually defence related. They are also not mentally tough enough not having to fight and claw their way thru competitive and professional tier below Super Rugby. Although this is more a structural issue with rugby in Australia. They just don’t have to fight as hard to earn and keep their spots as in other countries.

Agreed.
I'd add to your list the limited number of competition games they play. Sydney CAS and GPS have approximately 5 trial games and 5 "Comp" games where the intensity is maximised.
Players are in for a shock when they go to colts/grade for a full 17 game season.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Is this a Sydney thing? I don't hear similar complaints from other places around the country.

 

[Johnny Drama]

Seems like an attitude problem, I understand he wants more game time at 15, but you can't just throw a sook if things don't go your way.

That said, this is obviously all conjecture, we don't know whats going on behind closed doors

He should try getting a job in the real world. Once he learns how much that sucks he might realise how lucky he is to get paid a whole lot more just to play a sport.

 

[Johnny Drama]

Kurtley's two dropped balls in the final minutes were certainly fatigue-related.

How does a 15 get fatigued? Spend most of the match with their hands on their hips spectating!!! KB (Kurtley Beale) is not Super Rugby standard.